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Marks position on Ketosis? Ketogenic vs Paleo.

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  • #46
    There is no one way of eating that's right for everyone.

    There is no one way of eating that's right for you for every single stage of your life.

    Maybe as a whole, across all 6 billion of us, eating low fat, or low carb evens out, but on an individual basis one will be better for a person, for where that person currently is in life.

    I think the confusion comes about because some people are arguing trees and some are arguing forests.
    We shouldn't apply a blanket rule to individuals, and we shouldn't use our individual experience to create blanket rules for others.

    If someone is asking about VLC, give them information they may find helpful on their n=1 journey. If someone is asking about an all potato diet, do the same, give them information they may find helpful.

    So long as someone is on their journey to wellbeing, it doesn't matter what road they travel by, and we should all just be cheering everyone onwards regardless.
    I don't believe there is one correct way of eating for everybody, and I don't believe there is one correct way of eating for a person through every stage of their life

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
      Hmm... this seems a bit like Broscience. I think plateaus are a part of all weight loss regardless of diet being followed. No weight loss is a straight line

      Of Whooshes and Squishy Fat | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
      A diet that minimizes stress and best supports an ideal hormone profile (and therefore maximize your body's metabolism) will be the diet that best supports weight loss. This would be a diet that provides "enough" healthy fats and healthy carbohydrates, specifically healthy carbohydrate since it is your body's preferred fuel, has a thermic effect and raises your body temp. Of the fat you do consume, saturated would be my first choice with as little polyunsaturated fat as you can sustain.

      The human metabolism isn't a straight line - some days you're very sedentary and others you're very active. Neither is the human appetite. So it stands to reason weight loss would look like a line graph of a landline-based telecom stock over the past decade
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by pcampo View Post
        ChocoTaco, Have you read "The Art and Science of Low Carb living"? Mostly what you have posted seems conjecture and anecdotes, so its hard for me to just take your word for it.
        Absolutely not. Why would I? If anyone has success following a low carbohydrate diet, it's solely because it's helped them make better food choices resulting in a spontaneous reduction in calories. If you have lost weight eating this way, it's because you're eating less, even if you think you aren't. A 1,200 calorie pile of steak and vegetables is huge compared to a 1,200 calorie pile of chicken alfredo or doughnuts.
        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
          You're not supposed to believe anyone...

          ...Choco never said anyone should trust him. He's saying to get rid of the dogma.
          This is basically what I'm getting at. You have to find out what works for you. Calories are all that matter in terms of weight. But different macro spreads can influence how that weight is distributed. A diet full of fried flour and low in protein at 2,000 calories a day should maintain about the same weight as a 2,000 calorie diet full of steak, eggs and potatoes, but I think we can all agree the latter 2,000 calories will provide a healthier body with likely a better fat-to-muscle ratio. I believe carbohydrate, while as effective as fat for "gaining weight," is less "fattening" - less likely to become stored fat. However, if you find yourself more likely to overeat carbohydrate than fat...well...it may not work as well for you. Similarly, there are A LOT of people on this site eating way too much fat and it's crushing their metabolism. So many people would do better increasing their fruit and protein consumption and not doing crazy things like drinking coffees with 1/4 stick of butter in them or slathering everything in some refined oil.

          Don't eat based on some guy's recommendations on a book he sold you and is profiting from. Eat real food - I don't care if it's meat, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, roots, tubers, whatever. Just experiment. Try high carb/low fat. Try low carb/high fat. Try moderate carb/moderate fat. I do better on carbs than fats, my meals look nothing like what most on here eat. I'd much rather eat shredded top round and potatoes, a pretty low fat/high carb meal, than a big fatty ribeye or bacon-on-everything. You may find out you're the same...or not...but you won't know until you try it all!
          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
            I agree wholeheartedly with choco's breakdown although he left out an important caveat....

            Carbohydrates are almost always the macro a person is addicted to if they have a food addiction. A great amount of overweight westerners are anecdotally addicted to food. If you go on a diet without addressing a likely carb addiction it is extremely likely your addiction will sabotage your weight loss attempts. This is the reason mark suggests a low carb diet. A month or 2 into your diet after overcoming carb addiction, choco's advice stands uncontestable.


            Sent from my iPhone
            I strongly, vehemently disagree.

            Who is addicted to carbohydrate? Are you addicted to cookies? Brownies? Ice cream? Doughnuts? Potato chips?

            They are as high if not higher in fat than they are in carbohydrate. What people are addicted to are highly palatable, processed foods which are almost always high in fat and carbohydrate. Oils and flours in unison signal your brain to overeat. Take a spoon too a bag of sugar and see how far you get. Take a knife to a stick of butter and see how far you get. Probably not far. Now let that butter come to room temperature, mix in sugar and whip it into icing. I bet you'll eat the whole damn bowl if you let yourself. But you'd blame the sugar as addictive, not the butter? I actually bet you'll get further into the stick of butter by itself than the bag of sugar!

            Carbohydrate addiction is a myth. I've never heard of anyone binging on boiled white potatoes or eating a straight bag of flour with a spoon. I bet you're more likely to binge on NY strip steak.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
              Not sure where you got the impression that I'm offended. I'm just typing responses on an internet forum.



              It's seems that you're attacking a strawman, as Choco never said that a low fat diet was better than a low carb diet. He was just addressing the issues with low carb diets that the "experts" seem to overlook in spouting their claims.
              I didn't. I said a diet higher in carbohydrate (with fat reduced at its expense) better supports thyroid function than a diet needlessly low in carbs. I never said eat a low fat diet. I don't even know what a "low fat diet" is. <30g? <25g? <20? Don't know, don't care. Eat what you can maintain. When you start needlessly restricting macros based on preconceived notions you'll increase your chance of developing binging issues since you're forcing your body to ignore its cravings. Eat what your body desires, but get it from healthy sources. Fats from steak and eggs, carbs from apples and potatoes. Not soybean oil and wheat flour.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
                There is no one way of eating that's right for everyone.

                There is no one way of eating that's right for you for every single stage of your life.

                Maybe as a whole, across all 6 billion of us, eating low fat, or low carb evens out, but on an individual basis one will be better for a person, for where that person currently is in life.

                I think the confusion comes about because some people are arguing trees and some are arguing forests.
                We shouldn't apply a blanket rule to individuals, and we shouldn't use our individual experience to create blanket rules for others.

                If someone is asking about VLC, give them information they may find helpful on their n=1 journey. If someone is asking about an all potato diet, do the same, give them information they may find helpful.

                So long as someone is on their journey to wellbeing, it doesn't matter what road they travel by, and we should all just be cheering everyone onwards regardless.
                +1
                Ancestral Nutrition Coaching
                Pregnancy Nutrition Coaching
                Primal Pregnancy Nutrition Article

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                  I strongly, vehemently disagree.
                  Of course you do. I haven't seen you learn something new yet in my six months on these forums. I mean you have alot of important shit to say wich is mostly true in my books, I find this great. just open your mind up to something that hasn't been studied by a scientist.

                  Here is a few points on this carb addiction issue.

                  •The addiction centre doesn't run on fat. It has no concern for fat. Fat tastes great and people will seek it for this, but it is not what they are addicted to. Almost guarantee obese westerners will go a day without fat before they go a day without carbs. It's the brain that houses the decision making tools that decide what gets stuffed down their gullets and the brain runs on glucose which it runs out of every 2-3 hours. Now is a fatty gunna get out their poor under functioning glucose genesis tools after the BS crash or go to the fridge, you tell me?
                  Once they hit the fridge, their brains don't give stuff what comes with the carbs, usually its a whole bucket load of fat, which blows out their calories, causing weight gain and the whole cycle to get worse.

                  •Why would some one carb addicted tuck into strait flour when there is a whole range of low fat, sugared everything. FFS a bag of lollies these days has 99.9% fat free emblazoned all over it. No shit. it's 100 percent sugar.

                  •You won't find carb addiction if you look around at successful MDA participants (includes me and probably you). My brain and probably many other MDA readers would signal for glucose genesis instead of signal a walk to the fridge under lowering BS as our metabolisms are fairly robust. That's not to say we should generate glucose constantly. Carbs are fine to eat, we definitely shouldn't be generating glucose constantly, we'll wear the system out.
                  What we don't do is "lose our shit" under dropping BS conditions and look for the quickest, easiest way to restore blood sugar ( ie a quick trip to the fridge, BS increasing in half a minute). Look at the people with a weight problem, if you look hard enough you will see carb addiction.

                  Think on that.



                  Sent from my iPhone
                  Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 07-09-2013, 08:14 AM.
                  A little primal gem - My Success Story
                  Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                  • #54
                    I think you are both saying pretty much the same thing. The addictive issues of changes in blood sugar are indisputable- it is sugar and not fat that is addictive inside. However, that fact that overeating requires careful engineering of food is also indisputable- it is perfectly engineered foods that are addictive outside. Make something too sweet, people stop eating. Make it too oily, people stop eating. It has to be that perfect edge of satisfying but not quite satisfying enough- that is what food engineers do.

                    This is one reason why I don't think the obesity epidemic needs a fat OR a sugar tax. What it needs is a regulatory framework for engineered foods- set targets for satiety levels and either limit or tax how those are met. The food companies have scientists on their side; time to get some scientists working for the public. One food company exec tried to get a conversation started on voluntary guidelines and it went nowhere... This is a place begging for regulation.
                    “In God we trust; all others must bring data.” W. Edwards Deming
                    Blogging at http://loafingcactus.com

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                      I didn't. I said a diet higher in carbohydrate (with fat reduced at its expense) better supports thyroid function than a diet needlessly low in carbs. I never said eat a low fat diet. I don't even know what a "low fat diet" is. <30g? <25g? <20? Don't know, don't care. Eat what you can maintain. When you start needlessly restricting macros based on preconceived notions you'll increase your chance of developing binging issues since you're forcing your body to ignore its cravings. Eat what your body desires, but get it from healthy sources. Fats from steak and eggs, carbs from apples and potatoes. Not soybean oil and wheat flour.
                      Ah ok, gotcha. And I agree.

                      I've always kind of gone with Lyle McDonald's idea of set protein, set essential fats, then fill the rest of the calories with good sources of carbohydrates, along with trace sources of fat from meat, dairy, etc. For me, this has worked wonders. Like you've said, you have to play with the numbers and find your sweet spot.
                      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                      • #56
                        If OP made it this far through, there is actually quite a lot of promising science in regards to ketosis as treatment and to low carb for general health and longevity. In addition to the books and scientist you mention I would suggest you read some information by the following people:


                        The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

                        Hyperlipid

                        Welcome to Dr.Rosedale's Website

                        http://www.proteinpower.com/drmilke/

                        The Ketogenic Diet Center | The Johns Hopkins Epilepsy Center


                        Anybody stating there is no reason to investigate low carb science is either unaware of this information or they are in some serious denial. Their are indeed many studies done already that show ketogenic and low carb may be valid strategy in treating a wide variety of neurological and metabolic disease states. Rather than burying your head in the sand and saying "hey nothing to see here".... keep reading and you will surely come out with a deeper understanding.

                        Truly there is more research to be done in this area. I believe that the group NuSi will help answer some questions in the near future: http://nusi.org/
                        Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-09-2013, 08:47 AM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          Anybody stating there is no reason to investigate low carb science is either unaware of this information or they are in some serious denial. Their are indeed many studies done already that show ketogenic and low carb may be valid strategy in treating a wide variety of neurological and metabolic disease states. Rather than burying your head in the sand and saying "hey nothing to see here".... keep reading and you will surely come out with a deeper understanding.
                          I agree that there are situations in which very low carb/ketogenic diets are beneficial. However, the problem arises when people are completely healthy and try to resort to extreme dieting tactics such as cutting out carbs in order to lose some fat. Like Choco said, cutting out a macronutrient just because some expert said that it's necessary is a surefire way to cause some serious issues, as we've seen over and over again with people on this forum.
                          My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
                            Of course you do. I haven't seen you learn something new yet in my six months on these forums. I mean you have alot of important shit to say wich is mostly true in my books, I find this great. just open your mind up to something that hasn't been studied by a scientist.
                            I've been on this forum for two and a half years. Go through my first...oh, I don't know...1,000 posts. I now have a wildly different stance because I actually try things. I don't just read. What I initially believed is nothing like what I believe now. I think you should take your own advice.

                            You are incorrect. Carbs are not addicting. Individual hyperpalatable foods (often just as high if not higher in fat!) are.

                            Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
                            •The addiction centre doesn't run on fat. It has no concern for fat. Fat tastes great and people will seek it for this, but it is not what they are addicted to. Almost guarantee obese westerners will go a day without fat before they go a day without carbs.
                            Absolute nonsense and not even worth entertaining. Every single word is made up and you will find no science - NONE - anywhere supporting this.
                            Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-09-2013, 09:08 AM.
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                              Absolutely not. Why would I? If anyone has success following a low carbohydrate diet, it's solely because it's helped them make better food choices resulting in a spontaneous reduction in calories. If you have lost weight eating this way, it's because you're eating less, even if you think you aren't. A 1,200 calorie pile of steak and vegetables is huge compared to a 1,200 calorie pile of chicken alfredo or doughnuts.
                              Wouldn't an insulin resistant individual struggle with weight loss consuming a large amount of carbohydrates?
                              Some of you may die, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.

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                              • #60
                                Speaking of food addictions, IMO it's not just carbs many people are addicted to. It's usually foods high on both carbs and fat and the wrong kind of both. Think along the lines of fried chicken, chips, donuts and cakes for instance.

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