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Marks position on Ketosis? Ketogenic vs Paleo.

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  • Yeah, it's funny how all of the Taubes followers (and Taubes himself in GCBC) seem to forget that protein is highly insulinogenic.
    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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    • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
      Not counting mass posting by trolls on this site, how does the body of literature supporting this compare with that supporting ketosis? One or two bloggers with fanatical followers, or thousands of papers and books?
      The physiological insulin resistance is at the level of the muscles. Its a response to save glucose for the very few areas that actually need glucose (some parts of brain). Nothing abnormal about it. Its actually quite transient. And if you had been dealing with metabolic syndrome prior to low carbing your likely going to find that once your metabolism has been given a chance to heal (vial low carb) when you do reintroduce carbohydrate you have a net improved insulin sensitivity.

      Seems to me people, either knowingly or not, are misrepresenting how all of this actually works. Once a low carber does carb load for a couple days you will be able to check insulin sensitivity via the normal routs, HbA1C (well this doesn't require a carb load to show improvement) and fasting glucose levels. This is vastly different than the pathological insulin resistance seen in metabolic syndrome which obviously will not self correct by simply increasing carb load!

      Here is part 1 of about 9 posts by Peter at Hyperlipid:

      Hyperlipid: Physiological insulin resistance (1)

      I really suggest that if someone wants to know about this stuff you read it there. Its far to frequently misrepresented on this forum.
      Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-10-2013, 12:32 PM.

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      • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        Dairy protein (and meat protein, too) triggers the release of large amounts of insulin. Often more than carbohydrate. However, neither of these significantly raise the amount of sugar in the bloodstream.
        I highlighted something that is counter-intuitive in my view. If insulin is present, it would actually DECREASE the amount of sugar in your bloodstream. The reason why it is does not happen when you eat only dairy proteins is because GLUCAGON is secreted at the same time to avoid hypoglycemia. This is not the case when there is excess sugar in your bloodstream, it needs to go to your cells and glucagon would prevent that from happening, which we certainly don't want
        Last edited by dkJames; 07-10-2013, 10:52 AM.

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        • Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
          Yeah, it's funny how all of the Taubes followers (and Taubes himself in GCBC) seem to forget that protein is highly insulinogenic.
          A little off topic. Why doesn't a type I diabetic need to take insulin when consuming protein?
          Last edited by Black Timber; 07-10-2013, 11:24 AM.
          Some of you may die, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.

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          • Originally posted by dkJames View Post
            I highlighted something that is counter-intuitive in my view. If insulin is present, it would actually DECREASE the amount of sugar in your bloodstream. The reason why it is does not happen when you eat only dairy proteins is because GLUCAGON is secreted at the same time to avoid hypoglycemia. This is not the case when there is excess sugar in your bloodstream, it needs to go to your cells and glucagon would prevent that from happening, which we certainly don't want
            Yes, glucagon is released to counter insulin. However, the balance is not exactly perfect. Eating large quantities of protein alone without fat or carbohydrate does cause a dip in blood sugar and can promote hypoglycemia. PSMF's are phenomonal for burning fat, but they make you feel absolutely miserable due to this.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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            • Originally posted by Black Timber View Post
              A little off topic. Why doesn't a type I diabetic need to take insulin when consuming protein?
              Not qualified to answer this question, but I can take a guess, I guess

              Protein doesn't cause as much fluctuation in blood sugar. Even if protein is converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis, this process takes some time, therefore there is not a huge rise and fall of blood sugar. However, I believe some type 1 diabetics do take insulin along with protein at times (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

              Again, someone smarter and more experienced than myself will give you a better answer, but that's what I got.
              My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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              • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                Your body prefers to be supplied with glucose through diet. It does not want to manufacture its own. Consuming large amounts of PUFA and sustaining vitamin and mineral deficiencies impairs our primary metabolic functions. Making our own glucose requires large amounts of cortisol to break down amino acids. What you are proposing is for your body to limp along on a backup metabolism while having chronically elevated cortisol due to a constant catabolic state. Simply avoiding glucose avoids the main problem of metabolic syndrome, but now you're opening up entire new cans of worms. The real solution is to lower PUFA, become vitamin and mineral replete and slowly cycle in glucose until you can tolerate it again. It may take months or years of trial and error to repair the decades of damage you've done to your body, but it is the real solution.
                Glucagon mate, glucagon starts the glucose manufacturing process in the liver a few hours after the last carb meal (the limp mode your talking about is the last step of gluconeogenesis days after your last carb meal). When our obese westerners reach the stage when glucagon is starting to ramp up they go and eat again, stopping the glucagon process. Basically after insulin has dropped a few hours after your last carb meal, you can do one of 2 things:

                1 Add glucose by mouth, this raises blood sugar, and also raises insulin again, which repeats the cycle.

                2 Let your glucagon take over, (give insulin a rest) let it convert hepatic glycogen into glucose, and also raise the amount of fatty acid oxidation for your muscles to use instead of glucose oxidation.

                Most people whom have heathy running bodies do (unknowingly) variations of both methods. ALOT of obese westerners never get to the stage of significant glucagon production, they get carbs (method 1) down their gullets before this happens. This leads them to cycling insulin all day, chronically stressing their pancreas making one hormone and not the other (probably a factor in metabolic disorder), changing the quality of carbs is not going to get these guys to upregulate glucogon significantly.

                What I am proposing is that the body learns to operate under glucagon conditions quickly over the first few weeks of low carb. Once our bodies get used to glucagon (it don't take long) carbs can be reintroduced, free from addiction as our body is now used to operating under glucagon conditions.

                What your proposing will get people healthy (low PUFA's, mineral balance) i'm not disputing that, just that it takes far longer for these people to function good under low blood glucose conditions (ie learn to rebalance BS themself) than if you go LC for a month. After a 2-4 weeks of LC they will have a much better chance of sticking with your protocol, than transitioning into your method straight from SAD.
                A little primal gem - My Success Story
                Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                • Originally posted by Neckhammer
                  (what you aint got any obese Australians?)
                  gotta speak in broad ambiguos statements on these forums, its a strategy to not get onto nitpicking fights ( I am not suggesting this is you) ya gotta be careful how you word your reply's around guys like choco.

                  yeah I was debating about a generalized approach to doing primal from people landing straight in from SAD diets. People with metabolic conditions like you mentioned need individualistic help, wich would be wrong to make broad reaching starting protocols for. My suggestioin was that people do a month of low carb to get rid of their habit of re balancing blood sugar by consuming carbs exogeniously, before they embarked on taking Choco's advice. He automatically assumed i was demonising carbs as a macro and disputing metabolic conditions brought about from low carb, he thought I was an avid taubes follower (maybe that was jj) and was a LC nut, he was wrong on all accounts.

                  Most of the people whom are overweight in my view, just can't be arsed living with glucagon flowing in their veins, they'd rather just raise blood glucose by mouth. Now If they did this for many years they'd probably reach a stage where; we can fire up a debate about the damage it might cause to their metabolism, but i'm not gunna go there because it will just decend into a nitpicking fight.
                  Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 07-10-2013, 07:47 PM.
                  A little primal gem - My Success Story
                  Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                  • Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
                    He automatically assumed i was demonising carbs as a macro and disputing metabolic conditions brought about from low carb, he thought I was an avid taubes follower (maybe that was jj) and was a LC nut, he was wrong on all accounts.
                    I didn't accuse you of being an avid Taubes follower (on purpose, at least).

                    I'm actually enjoying reading this debate between you and Choco. Sometimes a little disagreement is good for the soul
                    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                    • Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                      I didn't accuse you of being an avid Taubes follower (on purpose, at least).

                      I'm actually enjoying reading this debate between you and Choco. Sometimes a little disagreement is good for the soul
                      Ok sorry my bad,

                      Yeah people on this forum don't know what box to put me in. All the VLCers and keto dieters put me in the carb lovers box because I warn against all the damage doing prolonged LC can do. All the carb lovers put me in the VLC and keto box because I warn that carbs can be more addictive than other foods and are the crutch of obesity.

                      People just don't get the middle ground. It's the human, not the macro


                      Sent from my iPhone
                      A little primal gem - My Success Story
                      Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                      • Originally posted by Black Timber View Post
                        A little off topic. Why doesn't a type I diabetic need to take insulin when consuming protein?
                        they do mate, carbs have more impact though , the protein rise is slower but still there. type ones learn the foods that cause the most problems early on and carbs are the foods that require insulin adjustment generally. also protein is usually a part of a meal containing carbs for most people
                        When I'd had enough of the grain and starched based 'diabetic eating for health' diet (eating for health, my ass!) my weight was 242.5 lbs. On starting primal- 18th April 2013 weight : 238.1.
                        27th July 2013. weight after 100 days 136.9 weight lost 101.2lb ; that's 105.6lbs since I stopped the 'diabetic eating for health'
                        new journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1264082

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                        • My carb addiction was so bad I ate pure sugar and starch. Not Doritos but fat-free fruit candy. Not fried chicken but cous-cous with tuna. I ate every few minutes. I ate 3 king-sized bags of candy a day. I liked gummy bears and reeses pieces best. I ate grape nuts with dried fruit and powdered milk, and trail mix bars, the kind that are basically oats glued together with sugar. I fucked myself up so royally that a healthy regular low-fat, low calorie diet with vegetables and stuff like that could not sustain me at all. I'd always find myself with my face in some horribly sweet thing. I had to go low carb high fat to fix me. Now I'm fixed and can eat the carbs (although I don't eat quite so much now) without the horrible feeling I had before and I can go hours and hours without eating now.
                          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                          • Interesting explanation by Dr Richard Johnson without much diet overthinking

                            Be Fit Colorado 5/19/2013

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                            • Argh! Wish the radio host would shut up already!
                              Ancestral Nutrition Coaching
                              Pregnancy Nutrition Coaching
                              Primal Pregnancy Nutrition Article

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