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Help Shut my CICO Friend Up - THE GHEE CHALLENGE

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  • Originally posted by EatMoveSleep View Post
    Is there a standard (and complete) definition or explanation of CICO?

    Is there a link to this definition?

    There's no point arguing if it's right or wrong until everyone agrees on a exact definition.
    *CICO is a mathematical equation, it should actually be written as CI=CO.

    *CI=CO is a simple description of the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy), this refers to the fact that energy cannot be made or destroyed only transferred. So if a certain amount of energy is inserted into an organism the same amount of energy must be extracted from the organism, altho the energy doesn't have to leave in its original form.

    *CI=CO can be written as:

    Chemical energy in (food) = heat energy, kinetic energy, chemical energy (stool), electrical energy out.
    (there might be other forms of energy we excrete that I have missed)

    The basic premise of the equation is that what you do to one side you must do to the other, for it to balance. If I go for a run, I have increased the amount of kinetic and heat energy I have expended therefore I MUST add to the chemical energy going into the system by eating or fat tissue release, as the first law states. We can balance the equation more than one way, this is shown below:

    First tell me if any of the following equations don't add up.
    5=5
    (5-2)+2=5
    5-2 = 5-2
    (5-2) + 1 = 5-1

    There all good hey. lets get tricky, lets substitute numbers for energy. lets say that 5 equals calories in, it also must equal calories out.

    5=5 is written from: CI=CO

    now let us say that -2 equals a calorie deficit and +2 is a directly proportional amount of energy from your fat reserves.

    (5-2)+2=5 written from: CI - cal deficit + fat released = CO
    This is the bog standard way to blast fat in the dieting world, as we can see it is a true statement. You could have also added more energy expenditure (going for a run) for an unchanged calorie intake and the equation would still have to add fat from stores to balance.

    here's where it gets complicated. lets take that same calorie (energy) deficit written as -2 and add it purely to the equation.

    5-2=5-2 written from: CI - energy deficit = CO - energy deficit
    Whoa what just happened here. Someone added a calorie deficit to their diet but no fat was needed or lost, all that happened was energy expenditure was reduced by an equal amount. hmmm interesting.

    finally lets still use our large calorie deficit written as -2 and add in a little from fat stores (+1) and also add in a little reduction in energy expended (-1)

    (5-2)+1=5-1 written from CI - cal deficit + half fat released = CO - energy expenditure reduction.


    So from the above equations all balanced and mathematically valid, we have organisms losing a directly proportional amount of fat to their calorie restriction, right down to losing no fat at all after calorie restriction, and as we seen with the last equation fat loss can also vary depending on the energy expenditure restriction. What does this all mean?

    Well it means that CICO is not a fat loss strategy (it doesn't always lose fat) it is a description of energy use in the body. It is also clear to see why great big debates rage on internet forums and blogs the world over whether CICO works or not, in a fat loss argument, BOTH SIDES ARE RIGHT, you can lose fat and you can also lose no fat.

    Also how do we determine if we are going to lose fat or not, I mean can't we just eat less and/or exercise more to force our bodies to delve into those fat reserves, well yes we can, BUT..... our bodies have options (god bless our evolutionary backup mechanisms) to balance the CICO equation, you might force a calorie deficit, but your body might respond with a metabolic down regulation (it is a valid energy conserving mechanism you know).

    The above statement was specifically clear with a fellow MDA dieter (whom I gave some advice) whom after doing a calorie deficit for a few months (and successfully knocking a few pounds off), was complaining of reduced fat loss progress and low energy, lethargy, reduced metabolism and a reduced sex drive. It is plainly clear to see what has happened after keeping in mind the equations from above. he first used (5-2)+2=5 (full fat loss) then his body slowly introduced (5-2)+1=5-1 (a little metabolic down reg, a little fat loss) then he finally ended up on 5-2=5-2 (full metabolic down regulation). The really funny thing about that thread was most of the advice given was to keep the same calorie deficit but for him to increase his carbs ??????????????
    A little primal gem - My Success Story
    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by randomcow View Post
      Please let me know any risks you foresee in me drinking 1000kcal of melted ghee (about 140g) every morning for two weeks just in order to prove a point with my CICO buddy.

      Seriously, I've had it with this guy. I swear he has dreams about having sex with CICO professors doused in Coke Zero. All he does is walk around like a doofus saying that you can lose weight by reducing calories, that the source of the calories doesn't matter.

      I'm going to prove him wrong by drinking 140g of melted ghee (or equivalent in melted butter, macadamia oil, olive oil, etc) in addition to my regular diet, and show him that I didn't put on the several kg of fat he is expecting I will.

      FOR SCIENCE!!!
      So after that monster of a post I might plug randomcow's ghee into the equation and we'll see if we can end this thread and answer his/her question of whether he/she will add fat to the bodies stores or see no change.

      We will first assume that his/her energy intake equals her expenditure and we will say that this is equal to 5 energy units, her ghee will be equal to 2 energy units, this will make for the most simple calculations.

      before the ghee
      5=5 or (CI=CO) ahhh balanced

      after the ghee
      5+2=5 or (CI + ghee = CO)

      Whoa stop right there, this equation doesn't balance, it breaks the first law of thermodynamics. what is randomcow going to do.....

      well luckily through the marvels of evolution, randomcows body has a few options.

      Firstly it can pull that extra energy out of the game and put it in his/her reserves (it can't be destroyed remember so the energy must be deferred for later use in an equation that needs balancing in a different circumstance) it would be written as thus:

      (5+2)-2=5 or (CI + ghee - fat to stores = CO) ahhhh balanced.

      Also his/her body could just increase it's rate of energy expenditure to balance the equation written as:

      5+2=5+2 or (CI + ghee = CO + increase energy expenditure)

      or most probably his/her body will add a little bit of energy to fat reserves and increase metabolic rate a little bit also written as

      (5+2)-1=5+1 or (CI + ghee - half to fat stores = CO + a little increase of energy expenditure)


      So randomcow we can't actually tell what might happen if you eat the extra ghee. If your metabolism is a v8, it might rev up and you won't see any fat stored, or if your metabolism can't be stuffed it might just store it as fat, we don't know. I wouldn't go laying any money on the bet. I'll tell you what you can do tho, explain to your friend what I explained in this and the post above that might shut him up

      CICO is a simple description of the first law of thermodynamics. It is not a fat loss recipe (infact it is usually a recipe for metabolic disaster) it is "possible" to lose fat by adjusting the metrics of the equation. But he is plainly wrong if he sais you WILL lose fat by making certain adjustments, because he can't know what your body might also do.
      Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 07-05-2013, 06:31 AM.
      A little primal gem - My Success Story
      Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

      Comment


      • Not everybody heats up when they run, and some people generate extra heat at rest with their extra calories instead of storing them.
        Crohn's, doing SCD

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        • Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
          Not everybody heats up when they run, and some people generate extra heat at rest with their extra calories instead of storing them.
          LOL this might come as a bit of a hyperbolic statement but: I have just ended the CICO wars forever, and also (hopefully) ended CICO's typical use as a recipe for fat loss, and all you could come up with was a false statement that some guys don't heat up when they run.

          Let me introduce you to the second law of thermodynamics, it basically implies that energy transformation is not fully efficient, some energy is always lost as heat when an energy form converts to another, so this means that when you change chemical energy in the form of glucose/fat into movement of muscles, that energy transformation creates heat, this is undebatable, you are wrong. everybody heats up when running.

          In regards to the second part of generating heat at rest, now you are onto what I'm talking about. Instead of storing food as fat your body can just increase its thermogenisis or just plainly motivate you to fidget or move or excersise more if you have increased your intake. Yes this process can happen to vary degrees, meaning you might store all fat or you might store none, or store some fat and extra thermogenisis the rest of the energy. I can't say what your body might do in any given situation, all i know is it has the OPTION to not store or release fat if faced with an energy imbalance.
          Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 07-05-2013, 06:25 AM.
          A little primal gem - My Success Story
          Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
            LOL this might come as a bit of a hyperbolic statement but: I have just ended the CICO wars forever
            Oh how I wish this were true. Your points are valid, and have been made many times, but people will insist that the overweight are lazy and lack willpower and just need to move around more and eat less.

            I like my bumper sticker version: CICO is a description, not a prescription

            Let's make a t-shirt.
            The Champagne of Beards

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
              Oh how I wish this were true. Your points are valid, and have been made many times, but people will insist that the overweight are lazy and lack willpower and just need to move around more and eat less.

              I like my bumper sticker version: CICO is a description, not a prescription

              Let's make a t-shirt.
              I thought we settled on loincloths

              Comment


              • The very nasty obesity virus is what makes people fat and not excess calories! I am now going to hide myself in the high mountains of my country and gamble that the virus will not survive in the high altitudes…
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

                Comment


                • Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                  I thought we settled on loincloths
                  Yeah, but the printer said mine's too small to fit that many words.
                  The Champagne of Beards

                  Comment


                  • I can't believe I just read all of this.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                      Oh how I wish this were true. Your points are valid, and have been made many times, but people will insist that the overweight are lazy and lack willpower and just need to move around more and eat less.

                      I like my bumper sticker version: CICO is a description, not a prescription

                      Let's make a t-shirt.
                      This is the real issue. Even as the pro-CICO people keep adding qualifications and exceptions to the point where their position is indistinguishable from the anti-CICO position, it is the conclusions they draw that are counterproductive to solving the problem of obesity. Such as:
                      • Obesity is a problem of lack of discipline and moral laxness. Thus all overweight people are lazy gluttons, and all thin people are models of hard-working self-discipline, by definition.
                      • That obesity is high and rising because Americans suddenly decided to become lazy gluttons at the same time the government began pushing a higher carb diet.
                      • That willpower is all that is needed to correct the situation, because thin people are obviously constantly denying themselves the foods they crave and need.
                      • That obese people are stupid and ignorant of the fact that obesity is socially unacceptable, and need to be harassed and discriminated against more than they are now in order to force them to choose to be thin.
                      • That nutrition is in no way a factor, because all calories are created equal and utilized identically by the body. Well, at least for this purpose. But only when I say so.


                      The list is endless.

                      While I say this is counterproductive to solving the problem of obesity, that's really not an issue in this case, because the purpose is to make thin people feel morally righteous about fat-shaming.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mostlygizzards View Post
                        I can't believe I just read all of this.
                        You're a glutton for punishment too, huh?
                        be the hair that knots with my hair
                        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                        primal since oct. 1, 2012

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          Yeah, but the printer said mine's too small to fit that many words.
                          Gotta love self-degradation humor. Tell the printer to try a different font maybe?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by quikky View Post
                            You should eat your friend and see if you gain weight from it. Pretty primal.
                            Bahahaha! Perfect.

                            “you aren't what you eat - you are what you don't poop.” Wavy Gravy

                            Today I am Fillyjonk. Tommorow I will be Snufkin.

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