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Help Shut my CICO Friend Up - THE GHEE CHALLENGE

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  • What makes propaganda effective; it's partially true, and partially false, and very seductive...thus it keeps the common mind wrapped up in confusion...for 120 years now and counting.

    It truly blew my mind when I found out MDA people believe in CICO. My mind is still blown, but mostly just numbed now.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Alan Aragon View Post
      You seem to be a huge LaLonde fan, that's understandable, he's very sharp - and he's not afraid to adjust his view in light of the evolving evidence (he used to be far more of a low-carb advocate in the recent past). I was on the phone w/him recently for almost an hour. We were discussing nutrient density research. And FYI - he's not as Paleo as you think. He's actually quite reasonable & non-obsessive. He's even cool w/grain consumption in tolerant individuals. Attia, I'm not so sure about; he seems to fall on the more extreme/neurotic side of carb cutting. Good luck in your quest for knowledge, just remember to keep an open mind to evidence that runs contrary to your deep-seated beliefs.
      Alan: "you seem (emphasis mine) a huge Lalonde fan,..." I never said anything about me being "a low-carb advocate" whatever that means anyway. I now believe the USDA's recommendations are too high and politically contrived. Define low carb, anyway. You get a cookie for being on the phone with Mat, and for "FYI" I got that he's not driven by Paleo dogma(?) from his seminar. He isn't driven by "paleo" as much as he's driven by where the science leads him. It's more as though biochemistry led him to something that looks paleo. That's why I pay attention to his POV. Dr Johnson in his book, Fat Switch, actually puts down paleo at one point. However, I got the impression Johnson hasn't done much research into what paleo advocates, such as Robb Wolf and Sisson, actually hold as opinions.

      I got into bodybuilding and trying to grasp nutrition maybe before you were born. You want my deep seated beliefs? I've seen arguments come and go. I was damn skeptical of Atkins since it went against the FDA/USDA guidelines. To me you are just one more in the line of arguments touting CICO. Covert Baily's (along with the .gov's recommendation's) CICO didn't work for me and apparently it hasn't worked for most people. I'm sure you'll agree, using an analogy, that the body isn't some simple high school physics experiment but rather a complex chemical factory. From what I can tell...as a layman...not even the PhD biochemists come close to believing they have all the answers. You think cows give a damn about the the complexities of their diet? Yet if you give them an ample diet of macro nutrients they evolved eating they somehow manage to maintain a healthy weight. Bodybuilders notice years ago that certain diets (ones that emphasized starchy carbs and fruits) made them want to consume more calories overall. Like steroids, was that just their imagination? So how does someone make sense of nutrition in relation to their health? I see paleo as an "evolutionary template" that takes a confusing subject and simplifies into a way the general population can grasp. Isn't that the end goal? You make assumption about what you think my "deep-seated beliefs" are based upon a bias (strawman?) you brought to the thread. Any deep-seated beliefs I entertained over the years would've been very much in line what your argue. Now, feeling like I've been burned by following FDA's CW you really don't know what I actually believe today about nutrition. I think Paleo is simply an evolution based biological POV to build from. And I will wager you that following that template won't make me metabolically deranged. Do I need to eat grains to be healthy? Not according to this Harvard editorial Harvard School of Public Health » The Nutrition Source » Out with the Pyramid, In with the Plate "But grains are not essential for good health..." Earlier in the day I saw were Robb Wolf said interviewing you would be a waste of time. I'm inclined to believe that. From what I can tell from your blog posting/comments and from here with me (someone who isn't an expert) your augmentative style is less than professional, lacking in humility. I'll make this prediction based upon passed observations of other experts (and I admit I may very well be wrong about this) that the notoriety you now have will be short lived. Your professional arrogance will be your own undoing. As you get older the people you rely upon will get tired of you and look to someone else...and it won't matter if your science is actually closer to the truth.
      Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by spk View Post
        And I recall now that I have heard metabolic derangement used and just dismissed it from memory because it's such a hyperbolic phrase to me.
        metabolic disorder sound better to you?
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        “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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        • Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
          What makes propaganda effective; it's partially true, and partially false, and very seductive...thus it keeps the common mind wrapped up in confusion...for 120 years now and counting.

          It truly blew my mind when I found out MDA people believe in CICO. My mind is still blown, but mostly just numbed now.
          How do you measure the amount of fuel you need to maintain your weight? As far as I'm concerned CICO is just assigning known caloric value to fuel sources. How and when and if you metabolize and consume those fuels is individualistic.

          Personally, I like to pretend I have an unlimited financial budget and prices don't matter, but I know there's a limit even if I'm not balancing my checkbook and logging every cent that I spend. I know some days I spend more than others. But I also know that my income is the same unless I increase/decrease it and adjust my budget.
          | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

          “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

          Comment


          • Originally posted by j3nn View Post
            How do you measure the amount of fuel you need to maintain your weight? As far as I'm concerned CICO is just assigning known caloric value to fuel sources.
            Yes. It is a unit of measurement, how much energy is there. But it's not saying how the body will use/transform that energy due to biochemistry.

            All Atwater did in 1890 was observe how mini-ovens work. A mini-oven is not the human body. A mini-oven is a mini-oven.

            Next he forced the law of thermodynamics into it, assuming that the body was a mini-oven with legs. But he didn't read the full formula because he was too busy burning food:

            "energy can be neither created nor destroyed. However, energy can *change forms*, and energy can flow from one place to another."

            So you eat sugar, it changes forms and flows directly into fat due to insulin, therefore less energy available to the body for use. You get fat and lazy.

            So you decide to eat beef, you go ketogenic, insulin levels drop, all food is now available for energy, energy output goes up to adjust, you drop fat like crazy, testosterone then goes up, you lift more, you get more muscle, your energy output goes up even further.

            You say "it works" and become the next Atkins!

            Then the AMA says you are an idiot and that it is only CICO, and there is no evidence metabolism can miraculously increase, and a calorie is a calorie, and blabla, and keep eating carbs, because that's what is for dinner.

            And the never ending idiocy continues for another 100yrs with people trying to outrun a biochemical response on the treadmill.

            I'm just having fun.

            Comment


            • some CI -> [black box with non linear biochemical reactions and other influencing factors including environment, people interacting with you, weather, etc] -> some CO

              CI != CO most of the time because we have the ability to store energy for bad times. It is very easy. Using CICO as a measuring tool is like playing piano with mittens.

              Comment


              • Is there a standard (and complete) definition or explanation of CICO?

                Is there a link to this definition?

                There's no point arguing if it's right or wrong until everyone agrees on a exact definition.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Finnegans Wake
                  Depends on how long after.

                  10 minutes? +2 kg.

                  25 minutes? Keep the bathroom fan on and plenty of extra TP handy.

                  45 minutes? Tired, -1 kg.
                  Funny - I was thinking along the same lines :-)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by EatMoveSleep View Post
                    Is there a standard (and complete) definition or explanation of CICO?

                    Is there a link to this definition?

                    There's no point arguing if it's right or wrong until everyone agrees on a exact definition.
                    The Energy Balance Equation | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
                    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                    • Originally posted by j3nn View Post
                      As far as I'm concerned CICO is just assigning known caloric value to fuel sources. How and when and if you metabolize and consume those fuels is individualistic.
                      Yes. What I wanted to say but didn't know how to articulate. You are so good at communicating your thoughts.
                      be the hair that knots with my hair
                      - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                      primal since oct. 1, 2012

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                      • Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                        So you eat sugar, it changes forms and flows directly into fat due to insulin...
                        No it doesn't.

                        Comment


                        • Man shut the fuck up with this broscience. God damn, this is becoming absurd. Literally every sane corner on the internet is laughing at this place.
                          Make America Great Again

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                          • Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                            So you eat sugar, it changes forms and flows directly into fat due to insulin, therefore less energy available to the body for use. You get fat and lazy.
                            Please tell me this is a joke.
                            My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                            • Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                              Man shut the fuck up with this broscience. God damn, this is becoming absurd. Literally every sane corner on the internet is laughing at this place.
                              beating-heart.gif
                              be the hair that knots with my hair
                              - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                              primal since oct. 1, 2012

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                              • Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                                So you eat sugar, it changes forms and flows directly into fat due to insulin, therefore less energy available to the body for use. You get fat and lazy.
                                This invalidates your whole argument. First you have to be in a caloric surplus. Then, you are storing the dietary fat before sugar. Converting fat from carbohydrate (de novo lipogenesis) is in inefficient process that takes a lot of CHO to actually store fat in the absence of dietary fat. If you're eating at a surplus, you will store fat no matter what it is; carbs aren't automatically stored as fat. You missed several steps along the way.

                                So you decide to eat beef, you go ketogenic, insulin levels drop, all food is now available for energy, energy output goes up to adjust, you drop fat like crazy, testosterone then goes up, you lift more, you get more muscle, your energy output goes up even further.
                                Nice fantasy. Umm, yeah, no. Meat, especially beef, is highly insulinogenic and therefore the quantities have to be closely monitored (just like CHO) if you wish to sustain ketosis. A ketogenic diet is high in fat, not carbs or protein.
                                | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                                “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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