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Help Shut my CICO Friend Up - THE GHEE CHALLENGE

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  • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
    There is truth to this; but it is also true that the forum is full of pro-CICO people who are trying to convince everyone else to ignore what their bodies are telling them
    And then there are people like me, pro-CICO but honestly, not giving a crap what anyone else thinks or believes. I'm not here to convince anyone else of anything. I'm just here for the free wine and the porn.
    be the hair that knots with my hair
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    primal since oct. 1, 2012

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    • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
      There is truth to this; but it is also true that the forum is full of pro-CICO people who are trying to convince everyone else to ignore what their bodies are telling them, and instead follow some arbitrary plan that they may already know doesn't work for them.
      So if calories don't matter, that means there's no limit OR what every CICO proponent here says: figure out what YOUR CICO range is and adjust as needed because everyone has a ceiling. Theres no escaping that ceiling. Everyone has one. Yours may be higher or lower than average but hoooo, boy, it's there!
      | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

      “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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      • Originally posted by j3nn View Post
        ....who suffer from unusual metabolic and digestive issues, but do not realize this is the minority, not the rule relative to the other 7 billion people on the planet. I still believe CICO to be true, but not always predictable. [/B]
        Can I ask -- don't you think it's simply that this forum represents a minority of the 7 billion on the planet, that are learning, addressing and benefiting from the knowledge about metabolic & digestive issues? If we buy into the Grok vs Korg story then we certainly agree all humans have the capability of and maybe the vast majority are expressing or experiencing metabolic issues but don't yet recognize it. Because they're busily following Conventional Protocol.

        Maybe that's what you meant in some way.

        Did you come up w/ "metabolic derangement"? I instantly imagine hoards of zombie wheat eaters, roaming the countryside.

        “you aren't what you eat - you are what you don't poop.” Wavy Gravy

        Today I am Fillyjonk. Tommorow I will be Snufkin.

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        • Originally posted by little vase View Post
          And then there are people like me, pro-CICO but honestly, not giving a crap what anyone else thinks or believes. I'm not here to convince anyone else of anything. I'm just here for the free wine and the porn.
          I think the majority of people do not care what others do. They offer advice only if it is requested and don't care if others take it, consider it, or reject it.

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          • Originally posted by spk View Post
            Can I ask -- don't you think it's simply that this forum represents a minority of the 7 billion on the planet, that are learning, addressing and benefiting from the knowledge about metabolic & digestive issues? If we buy into the Grok vs Korg story then we certainly agree all humans have the capability of and maybe the vast majority are expressing or experiencing metabolic issues but don't yet recognize it. Because they're busily following Conventional Protocol.

            Maybe that's what you meant in some way.

            Did you come up w/ "metabolic derangement"? I instantly imagine hoards of zombie wheat eaters, roaming the countryside.
            I meant exactly what i said. I wouldn't say vast majority because even Americans are in the minority of the world's population and cannot be held up to the standard of health or lack of it. I think many Americans have unrecognized metabolic problems but I woudn't say most of the world does. I think many first world people live in a sort of bubble that they believe they mirror the rest of the world accurately. I disagree. I think first world problems such as over-consumption of soy oil and Pop Tarts--among other things--is still in the minority. As western culture spreads it's a growing problem, but I woudn't say the majority of humans are in poor health due to their food. The world has a bigger hunger problem than over feeding problem.

            I didn't come up with "metabolic derangement"; it's a common term actually.
            | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

            “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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            • Originally posted by j3nn View Post
              So if calories don't matter, that means there's no limit OR what every CICO proponent here says: figure out what YOUR CICO range is and adjust as needed because everyone has a ceiling. Theres no escaping that ceiling. Everyone has one. Yours may be higher or lower than average but hoooo, boy, it's there!
              See, you are illustrating my point. Neither I nor anyone else has said in this thread that "calories don't matter". I don't believe that "calories don't matter". The CICO position is NOT that people should figure out what THEIR CICO range is and adjust it as needed because everyone has a ceiling. That is an argument against CICO. You are arguing the anti-CICO position here.

              The CICO position is that for every surplus 3500 calories you eat, you will gain exactly one pound, and for every 3500 calorie deficit you fail to eat, you will lose exactly one pound, no matter who you are, and no matter what the proportion of carbs, fat, or protein you ate. All the mitigating factors argue against CICO being real.

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              • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                See, you are illustrating my point. Neither I nor anyone else has said in this thread that "calories don't matter". I don't believe that "calories don't matter". The CICO position is NOT that people should figure out what THEIR CICO range is and adjust it as needed because everyone has a ceiling. That is an argument against CICO. You are arguing the anti-CICO position here.

                The CICO position is that for every surplus 3500 calories you eat, you will gain exactly one pound, and for every 3500 calorie deficit you fail to eat, you will lose exactly one pound, no matter who you are, and no matter what the proportion of carbs, fat, or protein you ate. All the mitigating factors argue against CICO being real.
                That's not what CICO is. Weight loss does not equal fat loss; muscle only contains about 2,700 calories per pound. One pound of pure fat does have 3,500 calories but losing just fat isn't linear. Which is why you need to figure out how many calories you maintain and lose on because it is highly individual. the same hike will usually yield different burns for two different people. I have never seen one CICO argument (on this forum) say that you will always lose pure fat by creating a 3,500 calorie deficit. In fact, i havent seen any specific numbers thrown out, which you claim has happened. It often matches up like that, but hardly anyone can lose pure fat without some loss of lean body mass, e.g., water. Just because the average prediction may be off, it doesn't mean that your individual numbers are wrong. They're just different. They're still based on what you consume and metabolize. I have never seen anyone here say everyone will lose exactly one pound per 3,500 deficit. What I have seen is that calories matter, figure out your formula. Congrats to those who can eat 5k a day and lose weight! They're outliers. Most people are in a pretty tight range of a few hundred calories of typical formulas and even that can change from day to day.
                Last edited by j3nn; 07-03-2013, 03:11 PM.
                | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

                Comment


                • Wow. Confused why happy CICO people are even partaking in this forum. I come from W30 land so all of this arguing seems odd. I lost 85 lbs on CICO. I was miserable. I was weak. I was grumpy. Nuff said.

                  Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

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                  • Alan,

                    Slow day so I spent half of it going over you blog and the fructose debate where Lustig posted. (I had to wade through the orgy of back slapping.) I haven't seen anything to give a reason to want to listen to your opinions over what I could get from someone else. What interest me is the biochemistry which why my main go to guy on this stuff is Matt Lalonde. I don't put Lustig on a pedestal, that's your bias. What caught my interest in Lustig's video was the biochemistry. Have you debunked the biochemistry he presented? I didn't see that. From an evolutionary POV on the subject of fructose Dr Richard Johnson makes a lot of sense to me. He believes (hypothesis), and has submitted papers, that foods which increase uric acid flips animals into fat storage by affecting ATP. He not only points to whales eating purine rich foods but to our closest human relatives the apes. Is as if there's a mechanism driving animals to put fat in anticipation of seasonally lean months. I don't believe weight gain/loss is all about CICO. See my sig. Do you cows count calories? Cattlemen (and I are one) would love to be able to fatten cows up on grass and hay by giving them all they can eat (we bought a bull that's supposed to be genetically disposed to having calves that will; we'll see). Do spaded dogs say "the hell with watching my weight now," stop counting calories and get fat? I see no reason why the types of foods we eat cannot have an endocrine effect on body composition by affecting hunger signals.

                    I got into bodybuilding in the later 1970's when the general population hadn't heard about steroids. I was trying to follow the CW of the day that professional bodybuilders where promoting and couldn't understand why I wasn't have similar results as they did. I was chronically over trained. Then I heard how professional bodybuilders were using steroids and learned about those. (I never used them and stayed natural.) What was interesting at the time was that researchers were claiming steroids had no effect on hypertrophy, at least to the extent bodybuilders were claiming. Who turned out to be right? At about the same time I began following Mike Mentzer's arguments on nutrition and more importantly Covert Bailey's "Fit or Fat" books. Bailey's was all CICO. I stop listening to the bodybuilding world's CW about diet and put more focus coming from the government guidelines. I ate more carbs. I also took a trip to the Bahamas and was struck by the difference in body composition of most of the islanders as compared to Americans. Where they going around hungry all the time to maintain such low bf%? For me to be that low (or anywhere near) I had to feel like I was starving myself all the time. I was always curious about their dietary habits. As a comparison, I wonder how the typical Bahamians look today? Myself, today, when I heard about Paleo I decided to trying because is was supposedly based upon evolutionary biology. I saw the results within weeks. My energy level when up, my weight went down, and I've been able to maintain the weight loss without feeling hungry all the time. When I saw the results I was telling myself "crap, now I have to try and relearn almost everything I thought I knew was right about nutrition." Before paleo I had signs of Metabolic Syndrome while following the government's guidelines.With my discipline of watching my diet and bodybuilding, if I couldn't maintain weight following those guidelines I question who could. I can easily relate to this Peter Attia talk Peter Attia: Is the obesity crisis hiding a bigger problem? | Video on TED.com

                    Somewhat related to the "who turned out to be right", the bodybuilders doing N=1 experiments, Matt Lalonde had this to say in a Q&A experience from the masses:
                    Q&A: Mat Lalonde discusses The Paleo Diet | Appetizer | Life | National Post
                    Q: I’ve definitely been hearing a lot about the plan lately. In your opinion, is The Paleo Diet fairly popular?
                    A: Definitely. The more places I go and speak, the more people I find who have adopted this way of life. One of my favourite books is called The Wisdom of Crowds, by James Surowiecki. It’s all about how a large group of people, under the right conditions, will eventually find the same, or sometimes better, answer to a problem than the elite experts. That’s what’s happening now with Paleo – as more and more people try it and see that it works, word spreads and the population is slowly arriving at a better nutrition protocol, based on eating specific foods, but not necessarily having to weigh food, measure caloric intake or be married to a specific macronutrient ratio. This isn’t an unsustainable diet; this is a lifestyle to improve health and longevity.

                    And Mark Sisson thinks the same in relation to his blog. There are enough people getting enough positive results to dismiss the results.
                    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oceangrl View Post
                      Wow. Confused why happy CICO people are even partaking in this forum. I come from W30 land so all of this arguing seems odd. I lost 85 lbs on CICO. I was miserable. I was weak. I was grumpy. Nuff said.

                      Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
                      How many calories do you eat now? You do realize you can manipulate your satiation and deficit by choosing different foods? I lost nearly 100 lbs doing CICO and I still do it, just with different foods than before, but I was never miserable or weak from my foods. Big difference between 100-calorie snack packs and a steak, ya know. You seem to hold CICO people in contempt as if you can eat unlimited amounts of anything you want. As a matter of fact, every post you have made has been criticizing our posts. Nice to meet you too.
                      | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                      “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by j3nn View Post
                        How many calories do you eat now? You do realize you can manipulate your satiation and deficit by choosing different foods? I lost nearly 100 lbs doing CICO and I still do it, just with different foods than before, but I was never miserable or weak from my foods. Big difference between 100-calorie snack packs and a steak, ya know. You seem to hold CICO people in contempt as if you can eat unlimited amounts of anything you want. As a matter of fact, every post you have made has been criticizing our posts. Nice to meet you too.
                        I am sorry to be a negative nancy. I will work on not being that. It is annoying. My only other forum had moderators who kept things accurate and polite. This is new for me so I am sorry for being snarky.

                        I have no clue how many calories I take in. I follow a template. Palm sized protein, thumb sized (or two) amount of fat and the rest of my plate is veggies. I eat no processed carbs 90% of the time. If I go out for sushi, I eat rice. If it's the holidays, I eat Katies stuffing or dessert. It has to be worth it to go off of my typical eating plan. I also have no clue how much I weigh. Pimped my scale out to my neighbor. I am guessing 125-130. It all works for me.

                        Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

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                        • I also should have said I am never hungry nor do I feel deprived. I love my food and the way I eat.

                          Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

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                          • I'm a calorie counter but I'm also primal/paleo. It's possible to be both. I am not alone here in that regard. Yes, I'm trying to lose a few pounds but it's more about healthy eating than anything else. Even if I was told I would never lose another pound being primal, I wouldn't trade it for anything. Just being Primal is not enough for me to lose weight anymore. It was in the beginning. It no longer is. So I have had to curb calories. It is what it is.
                            be the hair that knots with my hair
                            - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            primal since oct. 1, 2012

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                              Alan,

                              Slow day so I spent half of it going over you blog and the fructose debate where Lustig posted. (I had to wade through the orgy of back slapping.) I haven't seen anything to give a reason to want to listen to your opinions over what I could get from someone else. What interest me is the biochemistry which why my main go to guy on this stuff is Matt Lalonde. I don't put Lustig on a pedestal, that's your bias. What caught my interest in Lustig's video was the biochemistry. Have you debunked the biochemistry he presented? I didn't see that. From an evolutionary POV on the subject of fructose Dr Richard Johnson makes a lot of sense to me. He believes (hypothesis), and has submitted papers, that foods which increase uric acid flips animals into fat storage by affecting ATP. He not only points to whales eating purine rich foods but to our closest human relatives the apes. Is as if there's a mechanism driving animals to put fat in anticipation of seasonally lean months. I don't believe weight gain/loss is all about CICO. See my sig. Do you cows count calories? Cattlemen (and I are one) would love to be able to fatten cows up on grass and hay by giving them all they can eat (we bought a bull that's supposed to be genetically disposed to having calves that will; we'll see). Do spaded dogs say "the hell with watching my weight now," stop counting calories and get fat? I see no reason why the types of foods we eat cannot have an endocrine effect on body composition by affecting hunger signals.

                              I got into bodybuilding in the later 1970's when the general population hadn't heard about steroids. I was trying to follow the CW of the day that professional bodybuilders where promoting and couldn't understand why I wasn't have similar results as they did. I was chronically over trained. Then I heard how professional bodybuilders were using steroids and learned about those. (I never used them and stayed natural.) What was interesting at the time was that researchers were claiming steroids had no effect on hypertrophy, at least to the extent bodybuilders were claiming. Who turned out to be right? At about the same time I began following Mike Mentzer's arguments on nutrition and more importantly Covert Bailey's "Fit or Fat" books. Bailey's was all CICO. I stop listening to the bodybuilding world's CW about diet and put more focus coming from the government guidelines. I ate more carbs. I also took a trip to the Bahamas and was struck by the difference in body composition of most of the islanders as compared to Americans. Where they going around hungry all the time to maintain such low bf%? For me to be that low (or anywhere near) I had to feel like I was starving myself all the time. I was always curious about their dietary habits. As a comparison, I wonder how the typical Bahamians look today? Myself, today, when I heard about Paleo I decided to trying because is was supposedly based upon evolutionary biology. I saw the results within weeks. My energy level when up, my weight went down, and I've been able to maintain the weight loss without feeling hungry all the time. When I saw the results I was telling myself "crap, now I have to try and relearn almost everything I thought I knew was right about nutrition." Before paleo I had signs of Metabolic Syndrome while following the government's guidelines.With my discipline of watching my diet and bodybuilding, if I couldn't maintain weight following those guidelines I question who could. I can easily relate to this Peter Attia talk Peter Attia: Is the obesity crisis hiding a bigger problem? | Video on TED.com

                              Somewhat related to the "who turned out to be right", the bodybuilders doing N=1 experiments, Matt Lalonde had this to say in a Q&A experience from the masses:
                              Q&A: Mat Lalonde discusses The Paleo Diet | Appetizer | Life | National Post
                              Q: I’ve definitely been hearing a lot about the plan lately. In your opinion, is The Paleo Diet fairly popular?
                              A: Definitely. The more places I go and speak, the more people I find who have adopted this way of life. One of my favourite books is called The Wisdom of Crowds, by James Surowiecki. It’s all about how a large group of people, under the right conditions, will eventually find the same, or sometimes better, answer to a problem than the elite experts. That’s what’s happening now with Paleo – as more and more people try it and see that it works, word spreads and the population is slowly arriving at a better nutrition protocol, based on eating specific foods, but not necessarily having to weigh food, measure caloric intake or be married to a specific macronutrient ratio. This isn’t an unsustainable diet; this is a lifestyle to improve health and longevity.

                              And Mark Sisson thinks the same in relation to his blog. There are enough people getting enough positive results to dismiss the results.
                              You seem to be a huge LaLonde fan, that's understandable, he's very sharp - and he's not afraid to adjust his view in light of the evolving evidence (he used to be far more of a low-carb advocate in the recent past). I was on the phone w/him recently for almost an hour. We were discussing nutrient density research. And FYI - he's not as Paleo as you think. He's actually quite reasonable & non-obsessive. He's even cool w/grain consumption in tolerant individuals. Attia, I'm not so sure about; he seems to fall on the more extreme/neurotic side of carb cutting. Good luck in your quest for knowledge, just remember to keep an open mind to evidence that runs contrary to your deep-seated beliefs.

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                              • Originally posted by j3nn View Post
                                I meant exactly what i said.
                                Sounds like it caused offense to try and learn from what you'd written. I understand we're parsing the world by 1st world/3rd world differences. I think about the pot bellied guy I know, living on a traditional polynesian fishing vessel, who is mostly eating traditional old-world foods and somehow is developing outward appearance of someone w/ western eating habits, that tells me we're all capable of the metabolic issues, relative to what they eat in their given community. Simplistic observation sure but it gives me pause.

                                And I recall now that I have heard metabolic derangement used and just dismissed it from memory because it's such a hyperbolic phrase to me.

                                “you aren't what you eat - you are what you don't poop.” Wavy Gravy

                                Today I am Fillyjonk. Tommorow I will be Snufkin.

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