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  • #31
    Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    Darn. It would be nice to see the research, but I'm not going to buy the book
    A review of their arguments (with citations and descriptions of some of their studies) is published in an open journal:

    Nutrition & Metabolism | Full text | Ketogenic diets and physical performance

    The above should take you to an html version, and there is a PDF link from that page.

    For those with tl;dr syndrome, key quote is here:

    " Therapeutic use of ketogenic diets should not require constraint of most forms of physical labor or recreational activity, with the one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics. "

    dnj
    Last edited by dnj1965; 06-30-2013, 05:22 PM. Reason: added quote to those not inclinded to follow the link...
    SW = 290, PSW = 290, CW = 228, UGW = 194
    6'2" Male, Early 50's

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Annlee View Post
      Western States 100 Low Carber Wins Ultramarathon Steve Phinney and Jeff Volek Study | Me and My Diabetes

      Very few carbs, running in ketosis, and not only won, but knocked 21 minutes off the course record ... in one of the most grueling 100-milers.

      See also - Steve Phinney Low-Carb preserves Glycogen better than High Carb | Me and My Diabetes
      Now THAT is what I want to hear haha

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      • #33
        Originally posted by janie View Post
        Apparently that is not the experience of the athletes they have studied. And the conclusion of these researchers is that while a high carb diet may arguably be best for short burst high intensity exercise, they see equal or better performance by ultra-endurance athletes at various levels of carb restriction.

        I asked about the MD b/c I've wondered about your background. You always speak so authoritatively as though the "answer" is carved in stone. I'm not sure it is; perhaps it is evolving and there may be some value in new research and what these authors call a "tectonic shift in sports nutrition thinking".
        Well, I am open for new insights, if they are well founded, but I don't think that loading up on fatty food before an "normal" endurance event will EVER be an issue at all. The human physiology does not work like that. Ultramarathon over 100 miles(!) is a low intensity steady state event that can be optimal for ketosis, as long as the athletes does not sprint in between, which is not very likely at such distances. Fat is slow burning low octane, it’s the best fuel for low intensity aerobic work such as; walking, sitting still and slow jogging. But fast hill climbing, sprints, and anaerobic work must be fueled by sufficient glucose from glycogen. A marathon runner or tour de France cyclist cannot compete efficient in ketosis - but a very low intensity steady state ultramaraton or walking for the whole day is somehow different…
        Last edited by Gorbag; 07-01-2013, 08:29 AM.
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
          Well, I am open for new insights, if they are well founded, but I don't think that loading up on fatty food before an "normal" endurance event will EVER be an issue at all. The human physiology does not work like that. Ultramarathon over 100 miles(!) is a low intensity steady state event that can be optimal for ketosis, as long as the athletes does not sprint in between, which is not very likely at such distances. Fat is slow burning low octane, it’s the best fuel for low intensity aerobic work such as; walking, sitting still and slow jogging. But fast hill climbing, sprints, and anaerobic work must be fueled by sufficient glucose from glycogen. A marathon runner or tour de France cyclist cannot compete efficient in ketosis - but a very low intensity steady state ultramaraton or walking for the whole day is somehow different…
          Agree....there are two really big holes in the ketosis argument/bandwagon.

          1) Measuring athletic performance using elite-level subjects running ultras is idiotic in the highest. In a similar vein, there are many world-class triathletes that train vegan, and using something as extreme as walking/jogging 100 miles at once as your metric is not applicable to most any other sport. The facts are there are THREE pathways for energy, and fat will provide ONE of them very well, if highly trained.
          ** Beta-oxidation (fat as fuel) = the "low octane" Gorbag was referencing. Used in LISS like ultras or walking.
          ** Glycolytic (glucose) = medium pace. Used in most jogging, tempo runs, most sports.
          ** Anaerobic (creatine) = short burst of 10 sec or less. Used in sprints, max out weights, etc.
          So....unless you plan on doing a lot of Beta-oxidation level races like ultras, NO one races in ketosis. Many TRAIN in ketosis to up-regulate the pathway, but this is to lessen glycogen use in-race.

          2) It is the MED? (minimum effective dose)
          One can lookup a TON of diet and fitness plans that are effective, and some of them are rather miserable to do, such as ketogenic. In case anyone hasn't noticed, eating 30g of carbs a day for weeks on end is not fun....and pointing out that "it works" is not the intelligent question to ask. The question to ask is "Is this the most efficient way to get the result I want?"....for me, ketogenic never wins that litmus test. I have gotten down to 6%BF before without going keto (it was still rough), so I don't think it is ever the "most results with the least misery" winner, for me at least.

          and @janie. I am an M.D. and hold a masters in cell-molecular biology...but no, one doesn't need that to know what they are talking about. No credential-hunting, it's rude and unnecessary. Just saying what everyone else was thinking when they saw that
          "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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          • #35
            Here's a lecture by Volek where he explains some of the low carb/ketogenic performance stuff that he's studied. The series is a bit long but really interesting. Towards the end (last segment, if I remember) he talks about a study in which the participants were put on a very low carb keto diet and a resistance training regiment, they burned a lot of fat of course, but more interestingly, they not only preserved lean mass, but added several pounds. Seems to fly in the face of CW a bit, but it makes sense if you listen to his explanation for how the calorie deficit/surplus really works when energy from body fat is so readily available and the body is deeply conditioned to access it.

            Low-Carb Experts: Jeff Volek, MD, R.D., PhD - Segment One (9:23) - YouTube

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            • #36
              Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
              One can lookup a TON of diet and fitness plans that are effective, and some of them are rather miserable to do, such as ketogenic. In case anyone hasn't noticed, eating 30g of carbs a day for weeks on end is not fun....
              I've been in ketosis now since the beginning of April (so about 3 months), and I don't find it miserable at all - I'm rarely hungry (incredibly out-of-character for me) and I experience less fatigue than in my pre-keto days. I'm sure I've knocked myself out of ketosis a couple times when I had too much wine, but other than that I've stayed ketotic. For the last month, I haven't even had to make a conscious effort to stay in ketosis - I just eat what I like, which happens to be a lot of butter, coconut oil, bacon, eggs, and steak, along with a bit of goat cheese and a few veggies. It also makes IF'ing a breeze. Ketosis was confirmed with a blood ketone meter. If I ever stop enjoying it or feel crappy (or just want to eat more carbs) I will, but just want to point out that it's not miserable for everybody

              Oh, and I've also lost 30 lbs - but that includes the one month prior to ketosis in which I just ate Primal.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Stina1115 View Post
                I've been in ketosis now since the beginning of April (so about 3 months), and I don't find it miserable at all - I'm rarely hungry (incredibly out-of-character for me) and I experience less fatigue than in my pre-keto days. I'm sure I've knocked myself out of ketosis a couple times when I had too much wine, but other than that I've stayed ketotic. For the last month, I haven't even had to make a conscious effort to stay in ketosis - I just eat what I like, which happens to be a lot of butter, coconut oil, bacon, eggs, and steak, along with a bit of goat cheese and a few veggies. It also makes IF'ing a breeze. Ketosis was confirmed with a blood ketone meter. If I ever stop enjoying it or feel crappy (or just want to eat more carbs) I will, but just want to point out that it's not miserable for everybody

                Oh, and I've also lost 30 lbs - but that includes the one month prior to ketosis in which I just ate Primal.
                + 1
                Ketosis has been a breeze for me, except for the first couple of days when I was ironing out my electrolyte balance. I will never go back to higher carbs on a regular basis. The clarity of mind, consistent energy, great sleep, lack of bloating and so many other benefits make ketosis the best thing that ever happened to me, diet-wise.
                Ancestral Nutrition Coaching
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                • #38
                  The people that usually seem to do best in ketosis are those that have enough fat to spare on their bodies or stay away from high intensity/anaerobic training. No rules without an exception though...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

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                  • #39
                    ketosis is the best nutritional choice I ever made...feelings of euphoria, even mood, easily fast 20 hours, loss of cravings (except for butter lol),less bloating...the only difficulty I seem to have is a need to keep a strict rein on protein...since getting a ketone blood monitor, I've learned that it doesn't take much to knock me out of ketosis...an extra 2-3oz of protein and I barely register the next day...was wondering if anyone knew if there would be less gluconeogenesis on lifting days...I find that 3-4oz of protein 2x a day is all I can have...wondering if lifting would allow me to up that on those days...does anyone know how that works?

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                    • #40
                      Aprilmomma ~
                      All you can do is experiment. Muscle-building protein synthesis happens over the course of days, not hours.

                      And remember that muscle retention is enhanced in ketosis, so you don't need as much dietary protein for muscle growth.

                      Also, you don't need to be in deep ketosis unless you have epilepsy, or another condition that requires it.
                      Ancestral Nutrition Coaching
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                      • #41
                        @stina and Dragonfly

                        I would say well done....you found something that works for your life and that is sustainable. Is that isn't what it's all about, I don't know what is.

                        I have tried it in high-volume training regimens (UD 2.0), as well as in trying to push a strong fat-adapt response before a growth phase occurs in rugby training. (By this I mean I do it before real training camp begins) I have found that anything that is ketogenic does not mix well with high reps or prolonged glycolytic training such as repeated sprints in sports. I would not expect it to biochemically....
                        "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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