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Messed up with long term VLCing = Hello Matt Stone!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by brookesam View Post
    Hey pabs! I started out paleo about a year and a half ago. I have type 1 diabetes and deal with hypothyroidism. Everything was great for the first few months. I was eating a great variety of primal foods including plenty of fruit. I was intrigued by VLC and eating more fat. I was in pretty good shape, weight stable, very active, etc. About a month into VLC I would start crying in the afternoons, hair falling out like crazy, horrible chills after eating.... and the list goes on and on. All of those things are symptoms of low T3 (the active thyroid hormone).

    Right now I still seem to be in the process of healing. I'm into the Peat stuff too. I eat plenty of fruit now days. My dietary focus is on protein, carbs and saturated fat. I'm not micromanaging the way I used to... I have at least on off day a week and don't sweat it.

    It's sounds like you have a good plan. Good luck with it!
    So sorry to hear about your diabetes! I hope things get better for you and thanks for the well wishes I suffered very similar symptoms to what you're describing.

    Originally posted by spk View Post

    My take jakejoh10 -- is that people can naturally find themselves in an obsessive mindset because one of first steps a person has to adopt is to track what they are doing. Going from mindless eating to awareness eating, then you see some form of results and slippery slope, whoops, you are hyper focused. Because that's what seems to *work*. So you keep doing it.
    So much this. I keep a detailed dietary journal on what I eat and how it makes me feel. To summarize the past six months:

    1)Fat+Protein = satiety
    2)Carb = hungry soon after
    conclusion = eat 1 and exclude 2

    As you said, its hard when having to start being aware of eating, especially when it means having to problematize any information you've had about nutrition prior to this, no matter how 'common sense' they might seem

    My journal will now include:
    Carbs/starches/sugar aren't evil
    loss of appetite is not necessarily a good thing.


    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    Welcome to the darkside!
    Thanks. Where's my complimentary pancake?

    Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
    Don't blame paleo or primal blueprint. Blame your tendency to go to extremes. You thought, wow, this is working so you thought if a little is good more must be better. More low carb. More fasting. You practically weren't eating at all. So you have now gone the other way. If a little carbs and relaxed eating are good, more must be better. Why not just try moderate carbs, moderate carb cycling, and healthy paleo/primal foods from all sources and see what happens.
    You're absolutely right. My new aim is to get better at this moderation thing. Any guidance would be appreciated. thanks very muchly

    Originally posted by max219 View Post
    Pabs, i also was low carb for about half a year, but also a long distance runner for a long time too. At one point I went on a semi starvation diet for a few months as well. This all happened about three years ago . Since stopping competitive running two months ago I have been reading matt stone and eating and overeating to raise my metabolism. I have gained some fat but my energy and body temperature went up as well. I am also training for strength now.
    Ouch. LC + competitive endurance is a recipe for disaster. good to hear you've progressed. go you!

    Originally posted by sauerKraut View Post
    Oh, the good old "Primal is not lowcarb" argument.

    When I read the Primal Blueprint, there was no mention of safe starches.. rice, potatoes, etc were still considered evil. You had a free pass on nuts, and basically the only fruit you were adivsed to eat were berries and other low-sugar ones... how that does not qualify as low-carb for some, is beyond me.

    There has been some improvement from 2010 till now. Some carbs will not kill you right away, so we'll just call them "safe"...but you see, once you have demonized carbs and created enough fear, it is very easy for people to drop them alltogether and go very low carb.

    EDIT: the fact that there's still a lot of confusion going on with "fructose" does not help either

    I was given the same impression as well from my research on paleo


    Originally posted by patski View Post
    Howdy pabs

    A lot of people will tell you you didn't "PALEO HARD ENOUGH". But that's BS and a way for folks to maintain some sick superiority complex.

    Good on you for dropping an eating system that no longer worked. I'm a big Matt Stone fan and his advise has helped me tremendously.
    Thanks heaps for the encouragement girl

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    This thread makes me happy.

    Btw Matt Stone helped me out big time when i was at my worst. Im glad that hes getting more recognition from the primal world.
    I got that impression from reading your post on various threads. Please keep on eye on this thread. I have a feeling that you have valuable advice for me.


    I didn't intend for this thread to serve as a running journal, but it looks like like i've attracted people with similar experience who are further along the nutritional learning curve than I am, so I'm going to run with it and take in the advice yall have to offer.

    Last night I went out to a pub with my sister and bro-in-law. I was hungry but when I got the bowl of chili i had ordered, I had absolutely no appetite for it and instead ended up eating my sister's pizza. It seems like I've lost my appetite for meat. The thought of eating steak repulses me. This might either be a consequence of my recent carb/junk binge, or my body telling me to make up for the recent starvation by eating highly palatable carby food. Which?

    A lot of you have pointed out my tendency to go to extremes. From here on, I will work on my moderation. Rather than binging on junk with the aim of restoring my metabolism (which is improving, btw), I will aim to eat whole foods while placing more importance on starchy carbs.

    Matt Stone would suggest that I follow my cravings, which I know will lead me back to being obese. He would reason that I will eventually lose the cravings and my metabolism will stabilize. i can then work on steadily losing the fat.

    Here are my thoughts: why allow myself to freefall back to obesity? could I instead stick to paleo? It has, after all, served me pretty well. It's just that i fell for the carb demonizing and general restrictive eating perpetuated by some parties. I know better now. Maybe if I eat a moderate/high carb whole food diet, I could get away with my past starvation while slowly bolstering recovery from it.

    Maintaining a decent physique is a big deal for me. I want to be healthy, but I don't want to have to go back (even temporarily) to being obese to be healthy.

    Is that sound reasoning?
    Last edited by pabs; 06-30-2013, 08:42 AM.
    Ones who try my curry are not ones to leave in a hurry

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    • #32
      Are you a male or female? Sorry if i missed that.

      I had the same reaction to meat arter eating so much for so long. Just go with it.

      I think you could certainly eat a primal diet while continuing to fix your metabolism and staying lean. Matt wouldnt be against that at all, its really just how far your orthorexic obsession with food is. Sometimes junk food is neccessary to reprogram your thinking.

      My main food groups are dairy, fruit and eggs. All primal approved, its just the macro ratios that dont fit the primal carb curve. It just comes down to personal preference of foods and experimenting with what macros work best for you and when.

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      • #33
        For sure you can. Basically from your description, you have put your metabolism under high pressure. this is what has given you your weight loss. Inevitably your metabolism has cracked under the high pressure of your macro and cal deficits. This way of dieting is done for you now, you will have trouble under any further high pressure dieting.

        It seems as tho you are fairly onto this already. So my advice will be short and sweet. I wouldn't stray too far from primal foods (ex pizza, ice cream etc etc) just take the pressure off. Cycling macro's, calories and a little fasting once a week is a great way of doing this. You can still run a weekly or monthly calorie deficit and lose weight, while taking the daily pressure off your metabolism.

        I'm just a bit wary of people jumping in for the glitz and glamour of a peatatarian diet. It seems too close to me to the type/style of foods that got us into this mess (obesity) in the first place.


        Sent from my iPhone
        A little primal gem - My Success Story
        Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Zach View Post
          Are you a male or female? Sorry if i missed that.

          I had the same reaction to meat arter eating so much for so long. Just go with it.

          I think you could certainly eat a primal diet while continuing to fix your metabolism and staying lean. Matt wouldnt be against that at all, its really just how far your orthorexic obsession with food is. Sometimes junk food is neccessary to reprogram your thinking.

          My main food groups are dairy, fruit and eggs. All primal approved, its just the macro ratios that dont fit the primal carb curve. It just comes down to personal preference of foods and experimenting with what macros work best for you and when.
          Yes. All of this.
          My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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          • #35
            Originally posted by pabs View Post
            Is that sound reasoning?
            I think it's reasonable to eat any and all real foods that nourish you and make you feel best. No macro is inherently evil. Not carbs, fat, or protein. Only variations of sources are questionable, such as HFCS, trans fats, vegetable oils, seed oils, etc. There is no such thing as right, wrong, or moderation when it comes to personalizing your diet. The only time extremes are bad is when they result in worsening your health and happiness; you might find a diet with 60% carbs perfectly suitable for you, but some would classify that as extreme. I don't. I think you have to find what works for you and ignore the holier-than-thou ones who believe they have a profound understanding of all that is biologically righteous in the human species, those who truly believe they know better than you what is right for you. They usually suffer from illusions of grandeur. Ignore the biases and psuedoscience and discover what you know to be true on an individual scale.

            This blog post popped up in my feed yesterday, written by a former low-carb Paleo proponent: How I Lost 20 Pounds in 2 Months On a High-Carb, High-Fat Diet -- You definitely don't have to gain weight or sink back into obesity! You should not. But you can enjoy your food while nourishing yourself.
            Last edited by j3nn; 06-30-2013, 09:13 AM.
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            “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Nstocks View Post
              It's the same story for America, the world most obese population. The context of their eating habits isn't from a few local McDonals, but an virus of junk food that is too easy for people to ignore. Sure people choose what to eat, but do you think it's instinctive to restrict your food intake when there such an abundance? Lets face it, how many real-world people actually face upto their health problems and take responsibility? Numbers of diet related deaths are on the rise, not fall, so the statement about women working to recover is a tiny amount. (But good for those who actually realise that they can change!)

              Hit every paleo blog (or book) and you'll never see anyone saying to eat more than 150g carbs. Oh I'm sorry, unless you are working out 2 hours every single day, in which case a sweet potato every now and then is great! ("Safe" starch to put more fear into everyone, by the way, like a pound carrots are going to kill you)

              EVERYONE in the paleoshphere blames carbs for the majority of health issues. I know because I've had a lot of health issues and when personally writing to Paleo bloggers, they've told me to go VLC to "fight the baddies" and clear up my issues. You can't be so naive to not realise that Paleo IS low carb or restricting food, not more. (for whatever reasons, right or wrong. It's a fact like Weight watchers is always going to sell you junk food and market it as "healthy".)
              You carefully selected your reading sources based on your diet obsession. You could have selected others. You did not.

              I remember those threads you started. You had an eating disorder, a diet obsession. And it seems you have not been able to normalize your relationship with food. You still think of food and diet in terms of good and evil.

              In fact, even though it's not true that no book has been written suggesting more than 150g of carbs a day, you are leaving out some important facts. The fact is that you chose to eat essentially a zero carb diet. You were obsessed with not eating carbs even though you were seriously underweight. You did not eat anywhere near those 150g of carbs a day.

              And while I say you shouldn't blame people recommending 150g of carbs a day for the fact you broke your metabolism by continuing to eat VLC long after it was clear it wasn't working, the idea that everybody should be eating 300-600g of carbs a day is utter hogwash. People who tell me what I should change my diet to without knowing what I eat and whether it is working for me deserve not respect, but to be ignored.

              The idea that eating disorders based on body dysmorphia is a minor problem for a few women is untrue. There's a thread over there where pre-teen girls are being blamed for not standing up to the media and taking control of their lives.

              You can take responsibility for your life. Or you can decide to learn nothing and blame others for your own mistakes.

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              • #37
                The fact that there are some who push the idea that carbs are the root of all evil often drives the obsessive restriction. The fact that people are misinformed is no just the person's fault, but the people who spread the BS are at fault as well. The blame should be distributed both ways.
                My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by patski View Post
                  Howdy pabs

                  A lot of people will tell you you didn't "PALEO HARD ENOUGH". But that's BS and a way for folks to maintain some sick superiority complex.

                  Good on you for dropping an eating system that no longer worked. I'm a big Matt Stone fan and his advise has helped me tremendously.
                  Lovin' me some Pat here -- +1

                  Every single last person who has joined this community did so because they previously did what? Ate like crap. Or thought they were eating healthy and it resulted in poor health.

                  Everything about Primal is largely contrary to what we were doing with CW, right? So when you chose to go this new route for yourself, if you see results you don't question the method --- at least not off the bat. ("hmmm, sounds extreme" says your office mate as they stuff a mc-breakfast sandwich in their face.)

                  I give props to Pabs for reaching out for advice while self-correcting the macros.

                  “you aren't what you eat - you are what you don't poop.” Wavy Gravy

                  Today I am Fillyjonk. Tommorow I will be Snufkin.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                    The fact that there are some who push the idea that carbs are the root of all evil often drives the obsessive restriction. The fact that people are misinformed is no just the person's fault, but the people who spread the BS are at fault as well. The blame should be distributed both ways.
                    This is the Internet man, every one is just pushing their opinion (you even said so in another thread), hell even a published book is just an opinion (eg TPB). If one becomes obsessed with an aspect of their lives because they read or believed another's opinion it is entirely their own fault.
                    However If they where damaged because they followed a government sanctioned food pyramid then that's another story.


                    Sent from my iPhone
                    A little primal gem - My Success Story
                    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Zach View Post
                      Because no one in the paleosphere pushes moderate carb cycling, moderate carbs, etc. Until Nov of last year, this place was ketonazi patrolled and controlled. All the biggest names in paleo up until 1-2 years ago at best have been strict about low carb and "primal approved carbs" potatoes and rice being the devil.

                      Sure, things have lightened up this last year so its much easier to blame the individual. Most though found Paleo a few years back when low carb was still in full swing, they fell in love and couldnt let go of their dietary dogma. Either that or they didnt get the memo.
                      Seriously, right!? Even now, the first page on the Nutrition forum holds at minimum 4 separate posts w/ people bemoaning:

                      -eat carbs early in the day they won't *hurt* me
                      -only do a refeed 2-3 times, will that *hurt* me
                      -join me in VLC & low protein has 600+ comments
                      -can I have carbs or will it *hurt* me

                      “you aren't what you eat - you are what you don't poop.” Wavy Gravy

                      Today I am Fillyjonk. Tommorow I will be Snufkin.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by spk View Post
                        -join me in VLC & low protein has 600+ comments
                        I'm really struggling to understand why people think this is beneficial on any level.
                        My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                          The fact that there are some who push the idea that carbs are the root of all evil often drives the obsessive restriction. The fact that people are misinformed is no just the person's fault, but the people who spread the BS are at fault as well. The blame should be distributed both ways.
                          But nor are they the answer to all problems in life, as those carb proponents who claim to be persecuted for their beliefs want us to think. Hardly anybody does well on a very low fat diet. But I have been told to do a very low fat diet repeatedly by carb proponents.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                            I'm really struggling to understand why people think this is beneficial on any level.
                            Because it works for some people all of the time and some people some of the time. Because some people like to try out the n=1. Are you proposing nobody ever test out to see if something works for them? The problem seems to be not people who give things an honest try, but people who get their information from a single source, close their minds to all information to the contrary, and then keep restricting themselves even more when it doesn't work until their health fails.

                            That's an eating disorder.

                            The idea that 150g a day of carbs is far too low for everybody is silly.

                            But you didn't read the thread, so you don't really know what it's about. I can give you a summary. A guy is posting on his experiences. Nobody is trying to pressure other people into trying that out. It's not an army of ketonazis plotting to convert others to zero carb.
                            Last edited by eKatherine; 06-30-2013, 10:52 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                              But nor are they the answer to all problems in life, as those carb proponents who claim to be persecuted for their beliefs want us to think. Hardly anybody does well on a very low fat diet. But I have been told to do a very low fat diet repeatedly by carb proponents.
                              That's an exaggeration. You are talking about Choco's advice to simply lower isolated fat sources. He never suggested a "very low fat" diet to anyone. Total lie.
                              | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                              “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by j3nn View Post
                                That's an exaggeration. You are talking about Choco's advice to simply lower isolated fat sources. He never suggested a "very low fat" diet to anyone. Total lie.
                                Yes, he has. I suppose though that would depend on your definition of "very low fat diet". Since despite established definitions there seem to be people here thinking that 150g a day of carbs is "very low carb", my guess is that your definition of "very low fat" is as personal as mine.

                                But I'll summarize for you. Choco has recommended that because I can't afford to double or triple my food bill by buying organic/pastured/grassfed meat, I should buy the leanest meat I can get and trim all fat. Then add no fat in cooking to any of my food.

                                You tell me how that is not "very low fat".
                                Last edited by eKatherine; 06-30-2013, 10:54 AM.

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