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  • #16
    Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    You seem to like to make unsubstantiated claims on a whim without any evidence.
    This is a forum, since when are citations and a bibliography mandatory? I should start disregarding all manner of advice and suggestions I've read here then because the OPs have not provided a bibliography.

    I have not put forward any claims at all as truth. I merely said "I believe".


    In fact, I do my homework, and I have for the past 5 years. I think it's important to not make assumptions of someone's knowledge if you don't even know them. Just a thought.
    Same goes for you.
    Although I don't think either of us have made assumptions on what the other knows. I'm merely assuming you haven't read what I've read... either that or you've read more. Which I don't know because you haven't provided evidence for your claims to the contrary.

    And I do eat grains, so saying "you" don't eat grains doesn't apply in my particular situation.
    I'd ask "why are you here then?" but that's moot and it's a free for all forum.


    Yes, you are free to believe what you want, not arguing that. Something that I think plays a part in the idea that everyone should cut out grains is the fact that you are surrounded by people (on this forum) who have a myriad of health issues such as gluten intolerance and full-blown celiac. People who have undoubtedly benefited from cutting wheat out of their diet.
    That is a very good point, the sample population here is very specific. However, I have been eating this way and reading longer than I have been on this forum.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Allenete View Post
      This is a forum, since when are citations and a bibliography mandatory? I should start disregarding all manner of advice and suggestions I've read here then because the OPs have not provided a bibliography.

      I have not put forward any claims at all as truth. I merely said "I believe".
      Never said citations were mandatory, just saying that you should expect some backlash when you make such a broad generalization. I'm not upset or offended, just letting you know where I'm coming from.


      Same goes for you.
      Although I don't think either of us have made assumptions on what the other knows. I'm merely assuming you haven't read what I've read... either that or you've read more. Which I don't know because you haven't provided evidence for your claims to the contrary.
      You implied that I haven't done reading of my own, which is false. We all know by now that the research on this topic is far from conclusive either way, so if you're going make a claim (even if it's just your opinion) such as the one you made, you have to expect some kind of rebuttal. Not saying you said this, but at this point, to say that everyone is sensitive to wheat is foolish, and to say that no one is sensitive to gluten is foolish, even more so than the previous claim.

      My only problem with what I've seen from some members of the forum so far is the blatant disregard for the people in the middle of the spectrum.

      I'd ask "why are you here then?" but that's moot and it's a free for all forum.
      I think this is a perfectly valid question, seeing as I don't always see eye to eye with some of the "Primal" views. My response is that I truly enjoy Mark's work, I think he's an excellent person, and I think that it's good to see other sides of the coin, as it will help me learn even more rather than being pigeonholed and suffering from confirmation bias.
      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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      • #18
        Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
        Never said citations were mandatory, just saying that you should expect some backlash when you make such a broad generalization......
        No OP shouldn't expect such backlash. Its a substantial aspect of the theory we are working under. Dude, you had your say in the other two threads.... Is this going to be an issue every single time someone makes a comment on wheat? I can understand why you jumped in on those other two threads, but this is getting silly.

        Seriously. Consider keeping it to the research thread. We can discuss biochemistry and delayed immunological reactions all day in there, but in the general nutrition thread maybe start with the assumption that people are following the PB theory and practice so just want info on that. Its just silly to keep pressing on an issue that is the cornerstone of why people chose this WOE in the first place.

        For the record the OP's claims are not unsubstantiated. You can make a fine case that gmo dwarf wheat is detrimental to PEOPLE. The evidence to support OP's claims are there. But this isn't math or physics so you will never come to THE answer. The closest we can come in biology is a well supported theory so debate is inevitable.

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        • #19
          I do think the whole gluten free thing is overdone, but damn, Americans eat way too much baked goods at the expense or in addition to nutritious foods. I look at all that stuff- be it coconut flour, rice flour or real flour as filler. Nothing more, nothing less than empty calories. Your body simply does not need it.

          For me, I can eat the occasional bread with no other problems. But I don't need it daily or even weekly. I used to eat bread or wheat 3 times a day as the basis to my diet. That was incorrect.

          I guess I feel like the real problem with wheat or grains, for those without sensitivity is that muffins, bread, cookies should never be a main portion of your diet. Period.

          http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
          Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
            I think that is absolutely dead-on. If you're not a celiac, there is no point in going gluten-free if you're not going to commit to a significant lifestyle change. Replacing brownies with gluten-free brownies is a waste of time and won't show any measurable health benefits. And generally, because wheat flour is a staple and fortified as mentioned, switching to corn starch and rice flour, the typical go-to gluten-free fours, is going to be even less nutritious. In short, going "gluten-free" COULD be even less healthy.

            This isn't written in the context of avoiding processed foods. It's simply stating switching wheat flour for other junk flours for a non-celiac is just a waste of time, potentially even less nutritious and surely more expensive since you're paying for that g* logo. I agree 100%.
            this is so true.

            i feel this is where the belief system comes into play more than the reality system.

            society has placed a specific emphasis on feeling good with food. the more sugary the food the more satisfaction

            I remember my first round of HCG. coming off the restricted diet everything was so sweet that it was sickening. but by the time i got to my second round it had toned down again.

            when you divorce the concept of happiness/entitlement being part of food reward ( yeah i used that phrase LOL ) you begin to make RATIONAL choices about food

            choices you cannot make until you realize that calories are here to provide fuel for the organism and any other benefit is ancillary and most often unnecessary
            Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

            Predator not Prey
            Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

            CW 315 | SW 506
            Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


            Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Allenete View Post
              You're right, it's in the context of switching wheat to GF, not Paleo.
              However, it's still in the context of CW.

              The comment "if you can't cut calories and save on carbs, what makes GF healthier" ... really? Healthy is about less calories and less carbs? Have you MET gluten? It does things to our bodies that is much worse than nutritionally empty food. To be diagnosed as a celiac you have to be on the extreme spectrum of gluten sensitivity. You have to be at the point of no return. Meanwhile, I really believe most, if not all, of us have a gluten sensitivity. Some may not be aware of it, some may think they have indigestion and bloating.

              A regular muffin and a GF muffin may both be evil, but I'm not sure wheat is the lesser of the two evils. Both are highly processed, refined and sugary, but given no choice I'd rather go GF and leave "nutritional fortification" to other (real) food.
              I don't think gluten is healthy. I think it is better to avoid gluten, at least regularly, for obvious reasons. However, gluten gets far more credit than it deserves around here. People think wheat is the worst thing on Earth. It isn't. In fact, if your body is healthy, gluten here and there will probably not hurt you at all. People are so metabolically ill from all the polyunsaturated fats in their diet and all the funky hormones, pesticides and steroids in our foods, gluten becomes a trigger for autoimmune conditions. Food allergies are through the roof - peanut allergies, gluten intolerance - ALL OF IT. Make no mistake, it is the vast difference in fats that we intake and all the weird proteins from all the screwed up animals we're fed these days. Gluten is a bullet, not the person behind the trigger. Blaming it is shortsighted.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                It makes no sense at all to recommend that people who know they are gluten intolerant and know they are going to be sick for weeks if they eat gluten should keep eating gluten regardless, anymore than it does to pretend that the overwhelming majority of people with celiac or non-celiac gluten intolerance, who have never been diagnosed and have no idea, will do just fine for the rest of their lives eating gluten. FAIL.
                If your gut flora is so screwed up from overconsumption of polyunsaturated fats and antibiotics that you can no longer digest gluten, is removing gluten the answer?

                The shortsighted answer is "yes." The real answer to the problem is to heal your body so gluten no longer permeates your gut lining. That, of course, is a lot more work. Celiac disease is on the rise because of the PUFA and antibiotics we consume in excess every day. We can't digest these grains anymore. Yes, grains are less than ideal food and far less healthy than meat, fruits and vegetables, but we need to stop taking this narrow view of health, cursing individual foods for being "evil," and view the body as a single cell. This community lacks the ability to view the big picture and focuses too much on minor details.

                Gluten is a problem because our bodies are so screwed up we have turned it into one.
                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by GiGiEats View Post
                  I just ditch it all and eat vegetables for my carbohydrates and fiber - I don't need all that confusing nonsense in my life! lol
                  Me, too.

                  Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
                  I eat wheat; I fart. Farting is probably not a sign of good health.
                  Ha ha. I eat kale; I fart. What is with all the kale everywhere? It's like the new wheat or something.

                  There's another forum I read now and then with a guy who likes to comb pub med for interesting research. He has basically come to the conclusion, because of all the studies he's read, that pretty much every auto-immune degenerative disease we have these days has its basis in the gut permeability changes caused by wheat.

                  It's a perfect storm we have: dwarf wheat, wheat eaten to excess, refined "vegetable" fats and refined sugar.

                  But yeah, the article cited is technically correct: If you're going to switch from regular gluten products to gluten-free products, you're not doing much to prevent poor health outcomes in your future. Where it falls short is it doesn't tell you what you really SHOULD do which is get your fiber from veggies and fruit and get your B vitamins from meat, seafood and organ meats.
                  Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                  • #24
                    Chaco, I'd brought up the idea that maybe some grain related issues stem from buggered up gut flora, but it didn't seem to hold traction here. Celiac is a disease long known.

                    Also, TIL Celiac kills.

                    M.

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                    • #25
                      Its a convoluted subject, but OUR wheat is a major health issue. Of course its not the only problem and we all recognize that. Of course if someone asked "What is Primal?"..... The response would not be "Oh, its the gluten free diet!"...... I've never ever ever ever once heard anybody say that on this forum or elsewhere. And if they did they would be incorrect.

                      Its a part of the problem. Vegetable oils (I said that instead of PUFA on purpose..... PUFA is not my enemy!!!) are part of the problem. GMO, antibiotics, sugar ect.... all parts of the problem. Nobody has the evidence to prove any one of these things are MORE problematic in a living human animal than the other, unless we have specific data on ONE living human animal and we are evaluating and making recommendation to that ONE person.

                      The Primal Blueprint is public policy. It states these are the known changes and subsequent issues from ancestral society to now. We can identify the players in disease. We avoid these things without detriment to health regardless if I am particularly sensitive to one or not. Many times we have vague symptoms that don't even fit modern definition of disease that resolve. This is the "hey I didn't even know I could feel this good!" effect. You never know unless you get rid of ALL OF IT. Its synergistic and holistic. Taking the reductionistic view of "well this is worse than this...." is suboptimal.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        If your gut flora is so screwed up from overconsumption of polyunsaturated fats and antibiotics that you can no longer digest gluten, is removing gluten the answer?

                        The shortsighted answer is "yes." The real answer to the problem is to heal your body so gluten no longer permeates your gut lining. That, of course, is a lot more work. Celiac disease is on the rise because of the PUFA and antibiotics we consume in excess every day. We can't digest these grains anymore. Yes, grains are less than ideal food and far less healthy than meat, fruits and vegetables, but we need to stop taking this narrow view of health, cursing individual foods for being "evil," and view the body as a single cell. This community lacks the ability to view the big picture and focuses too much on minor details.

                        Gluten is a problem because our bodies are so screwed up we have turned it into one.
                        This is a fantasy on your part. There is no science behind it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          No OP shouldn't expect such backlash. Its a substantial aspect of the theory we are working under. Dude, you had your say in the other two threads.... Is this going to be an issue every single time someone makes a comment on wheat? I can understand why you jumped in on those other two threads, but this is getting silly.
                          Yes, I understand that. I have only jumped in when someone has said something nonsensical. Who said this is an issue? I certainly am not making it an issue and neither is the person I was conversing with. So I'm just supposed to stop expressing my opinion because I've already "had my say in two other threads"? That's ridiculous.
                          My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                          • #28
                            Science bite: Gluten-free diet in Irritable Bowel Syndrome

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                              Yes, I understand that. I have only jumped in when someone has said something nonsensical. Who said this is an issue? I certainly am not making it an issue and neither is the person I was conversing with. So I'm just supposed to stop expressing my opinion because I've already "had my say in two other threads"? That's ridiculous.
                              ChocoTaco has said the same thing when hijacking support threads.

                              Someone is wrong on the internet!!!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MEversbergII View Post
                                Chaco, I'd brought up the idea that maybe some grain related issues stem from buggered up gut flora, but it didn't seem to hold traction here. Celiac is a disease long known.

                                Also, TIL Celiac kills.

                                M.
                                You would be correct.

                                When I was in college, I was required to have the Gold meal plan. That means every single meal was at the Drexel University cafeteria. Now, I'm an Italian from South Jersey. I ate homemade pasta and tomato gravy 2-3 nights a week, bread with virtually every meal and cereal frequently. I never had a health issue aside from some chubby pudge. All foods were homemade. The only cooking fats in our house were butter and olive oil. When I went away to Drexel within 3 months:

                                1.) I developed eczema between my fingers and on the tops of my hands.
                                2.) My hair fell out along my temples

                                These problems persisted until I moved off campus 2 years later. Once I started cooking my own foods, it all went away like magic, even though I made homemade pizza and pasta almost every night. I fermented my own dough's with King Arthur flour and baker's yeast. Again, only butter and olive oil in my house.

                                I didn't put it together until about a year ago that it was the soybean oil in everything at the cafeteria that made me sick. Another side effect of the cooking - landslide shits. I would refer it as "blowing out your o-ring." Again, not an issue even on a wheat-heavy diet for me.

                                Obviously, my diet is vastly improved now with the elimination of 90% of grains as well (I do a dozen organic corn tortillas a week and white rice on occasion if someone makes it for me or it comes with a dinner when out to eat). I'm much leaner and feel much better, but it was the PUFA's screwing me up. Some of my hair grew back as well.

                                Gluten, in my opinion and experience, is not so much a cause of disease but rather a trigger once your body is very unhealthy. Chronic gluten consumption I could see as becoming problematic as it is an inflammatory protein, but make no mistake about it, if all of our guts weren't so screwed up from the PUFA and antibiotics (they're in everything from meats to eggs to dish soaps to the water we drink since people flush their pills down their toilets!) we ingest, we would not be nearly as sensitive and much more resistant to these diseases. It's the fats and chemicals breaking down our bodies that make us weak to the more inflammatory proteins.
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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