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I wish Mark (or someone else) writes a response to this...

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  • #76
    OK, putting aside my qualms about future health concerns. We just wanna look good naked and we have no immediate reaction to gluten. BTW I started eating paleo even though I have no health concerns, not overweight, and no digestive issues. So this hypothetical could be me. Alright so we just got 15 vanity pounds to lose and maybe start some strength training. The only person I've seen make an argument FOR grains besides you was the guy that wanted to get MORE calories and carbs in after a 36 hour fast. This doesn't sound like a strategy for weight loss. In a caloric deficit we all can agree that protein matters. Every calorie really does have to count if you are eating at a substantial deficit and grains really don't have much to offer. You wanna dirty bulk? Grab some pizza. But if your leaning out I can't see any logical reason to include grains in the strategy. Your assuming that the client will only adhere to a diet that includes grains. Sounds like someone not willing to make the changes necessary to succeed regardless of if you give em grains or not. Really though I'm not trying to convince you. Except you seem to train people and I would like to see this info get out to more people. Oh, and the gluten free market is crap. I'm not saying turn them all into gluten free cake eaters.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 06-24-2013, 05:08 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by janie View Post
      I have to wonder about the intent of your original post. Was it simply to tell those of us whose bodies can't deal with grains that we are delusional?

      Eat all the grains you want. Hopefully you won't pay for it one day as many of us have. But stop trying to convince others that intolerance to grains is a rare thing b/c it isn't.
      If you're going to accuse me of something, give evidence.

      I have not once used the word "delusional", I have not once tried to convince others of anything. I've laid out the facts and the research that we have right now along with some of my personal experience. I haven't been disrespectful at any point, I'm just trying to have a healthy debate on a controversial issue. Is this a bad thing?
      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
        Every calorie really does have to count if you are eating at a substantial deficit and grains really don't have much to offer. You wanna dirty bulk? Grab some pizza. But if your leaning out I can't see any logical reason to include grains in the strategy. Your assuming that the client will only adhere to a diet that includes grains. Sounds like someone not willing to make the changes necessary to succeed regardless of if you give em grains or not.
        But, for body composition reasons, you haven't given a reason not to include them. The possible health issues aside, if someone likes to eat grains, I'm not going to stop them, as long as it's not negatively affecting calorie balance and/or macronutrient goals. Why add excess stress and confusion?
        My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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        • #79
          fwiw, i gave up grains because i went low-carb to lose weight. it was many months before i made the connection to my improved overall health and being grain-free. now for me it's a given.

          if, as you say, your clients mostly just wanna look good naked than cutting out bread and pasta would be a no-brainer. not because gluten sucks but because they're empty calories that need to be slathered in fat to taste like anything at all. who eats a plate of just boiled plain spaghetti? the carb + fat combo piles on the pounds and the fat.
          As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

          Ernest Hemingway

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          • #80
            Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
            if, as you say, your clients mostly just wanna look good naked than cutting out bread and pasta would be a no-brainer. not because gluten sucks but because they're empty calories that need to be slathered in fat to taste like anything at all. who eats a plate of just boiled plain spaghetti? the carb + fat combo piles on the pounds and the fat.
            But that is a rather large assumption to make. Say, just as a hypothetical, you have an Italian dude who loves to eat pasta, but wants to lose some weight. Would I tell him to stop eating pasta? No way. I would ensure that his portion sizes are moderate and that they fit the calorie and macronutrient goals. Would I go low carb with this person? Again, probably not, because it would be difficult to get them to adhere to the diet without them breaking and going on an all out binge.

            If calories and macronutrients are kept in check, and the person's portion sizes are under control, then I cannot see a good reason why I would stop someone from eating something they love to eat.
            My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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            • #81
              i'm of italian descent and giving up pasta and bread was a HUGE step for me. as i said, i didn't "think" they were making me sick so that wasn't the motivator.

              however, going low-carb meant i didn't have to try to subsist on 1200 calories and be starving all the time, so i did it.

              honestly? you make your clients sound like simpletons.
              As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

              Ernest Hemingway

              Comment


              • #82
                i guess i'm not clear on why you condone this form of empty calories over another? like candy or soda?
                As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                Ernest Hemingway

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                  i'm of italian descent and giving up pasta and bread was a HUGE step for me. as i said, i didn't "think" they were making me sick so that wasn't the motivator.

                  however, going low-carb meant i didn't have to try to subsist on 1200 calories and be starving all the time, so i did it.

                  honestly? you make your clients sound like simpletons.
                  Honestly, enough people fail diets because of adherence issues. That's great that you've succeeded, but there are people who have a much harder time, surely you understand this. If someone has no reason to eliminate something from their diet, they enjoy eating it, and it's not having a negative impact on their ability to reach their goals, why bother eliminating it.

                  Insulting the intelligence of people you don't know is a bit childish, don't you think?
                  My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                    Honestly, enough people fail diets because of adherence issues. That's great that you've succeeded, but there are people who have a much harder time, surely you understand this. If someone has no reason to eliminate something from their diet, they enjoy eating it, and it's not having a negative impact on their ability to reach their goals, why bother eliminating it.

                    Insulting the intelligence of people you don't know is a bit childish, don't you think?
                    you're the one telling us that they can't handle the info that grains may be bad -- that they just get stressed and confused. i'm actually suggesting it's you not giving them enough credit.

                    again...

                    putting aside the gluten issue, WHY encourage them to continue eating the empty calories? people enjoy marshmallow peeps and shamrock shakes too.
                    As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                    Ernest Hemingway

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      people fail at low-cal dieting because it is not sustainable. it's simply not enough food.
                      As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                      Ernest Hemingway

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                        Honestly, enough people fail diets because of adherence issues. That's great that you've succeeded, but there are people who have a much harder time, surely you understand this. If someone has no reason to eliminate something from their diet, they enjoy eating it, and it's not having a negative impact on their ability to reach their goals, why bother eliminating it.

                        Insulting the intelligence of people you don't know is a bit childish, don't you think?
                        Well you say IF someone has no reason to eliminate. There may not be one TOE (theory of everything), but there are several hypothesis about how and why grain consumption in western culture contributes to weight gain and obesity. Some of them implicate satiety, some are food reward based, and of course there is the alternative hypothesis. You can probably poke holes in each, but IMO the likely truth is a subtle combination of them all. So yes eliminating wheat may be tough to start, but I do think it makes the subsequent caloric restriction quite a bit easier through other mechanisms including the fact that choosing higher nutrient density foods would positively impact your satiation and reduce your reliance on "self control".

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                          you're the one telling us that they can't handle the info that grains may be bad -- that they just get stressed and confused. i'm actually suggesting it's you not giving them enough credit.

                          again...

                          putting aside the gluten issue, WHY encourage them to continue eating the empty calories? people enjoy marshmallow peeps and shamrock shakes too.
                          It is stressful and confusing to have to worry about completely eliminating something that has been a staple of the diet for a long period of time. Aside from the fact that there is not enough research to say that grains are bad for those who aren't intolerant, why even worry about getting rid of it. You're not getting my point here at all. There's literally no point to eliminate something if it's not a problem. None whatsoever. I like to keep things simple and easy, is this a bad thing?

                          Where did I say that I encourage them to eat empty calories? Unless you're assuming that grains are empty calories. In this case, you're wrong. Grains are not empty calories at all.
                          My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            Well you say IF someone has no reason to eliminate. There may not be one TOE (theory of everything), but there are several hypothesis about how and why grain consumption in western culture contributes to weight gain and obesity. Some of them implicate satiety, some are food reward based, and of course there is the alternative hypothesis. You can probably poke holes in each, but IMO the likely truth is a subtle combination of them all. So yes eliminating wheat may be tough to start, but I do think it makes the subsequent caloric restriction quite a bit easier through other mechanisms including the fact that choosing higher nutrient density foods would positively impact your satiation and reduce your reliance on "self control".
                            There are also "hypotheses" that grains are beneficial and can have cardioprotective effects that cannot be ignored if you're going to look at this issue from an unbiased perspective.

                            As for your second point, as I've said, if there's an issue in which they cannot control their intake (which is fairly rare if the diet is flexible from the beginning), there's no reason to eliminate these foods, especially if the person enjoys them. Protein remains high no matter what, and protein is more filling than fat and carbohydrates, so satiation is hardly an issue.
                            My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                              There are also "hypotheses" that grains are beneficial and can have cardioprotective effects that cannot be ignored if you're going to look at this issue from an unbiased perspective.
                              Have you read the actual studies?

                              I've read a few and ALL of them have shown that 'healthy whole grains' are good when compared to refined white flour. Whole grains are good because they stop you wating whtie bread. That's EXACTLY the same as saying that filtered cigarettes protect you from lung cancer because they are scientifically proven to be better for you than unfiltered cigarettes (and, they are). The 'news articles' that summarise the 'science' are so wrong it's almost laughable.

                              I'm happy to be pointed at some scientific papers that show different conclusions. All I'm saying that when I've gone to the source I haven't been convinced.

                              Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                              As for your second point, as I've said, if there's an issue in which they cannot control their intake (which is fairly rare if the diet is flexible from the beginning), there's no reason to eliminate these foods, especially if the person enjoys them. Protein remains high no matter what, and protein is more filling than fat and carbohydrates, so satiation is hardly an issue.
                              Getting off topic here, but if satiation is the goal, then isn't low(er) carb the best way to do that? Since it's carbs that evade your satiation mechanisms..... (p.s. I am NOT a low carb advocate)
                              Last edited by magicmerl; 06-24-2013, 06:08 PM.
                              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                              Griff's cholesterol primer
                              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                              bloodorchid is always right

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                              • #90
                                Why don't people apply the same logic to dairy? The consensus is that if you tolerate it, it's fine, eat as much as you want. But if you tolerate grains fine it doesn't matter, they're still killing you slowly. Neither are essential and can be problematic for certain people but that doesn't mean everyone should avoid them.

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