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  • #61
    Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    This is like the people who say calories are not all created equal, then going on to compare 3,000 calories of sugar vs. 3,000 calories of broccoli. The comparison is way out of context, which makes it a bit ridiculous.
    Is it? At some point, some foods are so low in nutrition that you're just better off eating more nutritious food. At the other end of the 'ridiculous' scale is a McDonalds happy meal being 'part of a balanced diet'. And if you think that's a straw man, why did you bring up 3,000 calories of broccoli?

    I personally define 'nutritious' as being 'nutrient dense' in the sense that the food has a large number of vitamins and minerals relative to the calories in the food. I don't account for calories themselves, since we are fortunate enough to live in an age of plenty where excess is more of a problem when it comes to calories.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

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    • #62
      Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
      Is it? At some point, some foods are so low in nutrition that you're just better off eating more nutritious food. At the other end of the 'ridiculous' scale is a McDonalds happy meal being 'part of a balanced diet'. And if you think that's a straw man, why did you bring up 3,000 calories of broccoli?

      I personally define 'nutritious' as being 'nutrient dense' in the sense that the food has a large number of vitamins and minerals relative to the calories in the food. I don't account for calories themselves, since we are fortunate enough to live in an age of plenty where excess is more of a problem when it comes to calories.
      I have not once said that you're not better off eating "more nutritious" food. I'm saying it comes down to personal preference. If someone wants to eat grains, for whatever reason, then they can definitely be part of a healthy diet. This is where everyone disagrees with me.

      Again, it's all dose-specific, and it's all about context. For example, of course sugar is bad for you if you consume it in excess. But is sugar toxic in small amounts among a balanced diet? Absolutely not (sorry Dr. Lustig). So I'm going to keep saying it: it comes down to the overall context of the diet, and in my opinion, grains are not evil in every situation.
      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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      • #63
        Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
        As I've mentioned several times earlier, the elimination method is usually pretty effective, if the person is even worried about the gluten issue.
        but most people think like you do and aren't all that concerned with gluten believing their ill health is both normal and unrelated to gluten.

        for years i thought i was lactose-intolerant, even went on a soy-cheese phase. blech. was smugly superior about the healthy whole grains and lack of meat in my low-fat diet. i was alwaysalwaysalways sick. all year long i had sinus/allergy/bronchial issues that were debilitating. normal right?

        i cut out grains and legumes and nearly overnight my health improved. in almost 4 years i haven't had a cough, cold or sniffle. my insomnia is gone. my night-sweats are gone. my restlessness is gone. my hair and nails grow like weeds.

        if you had asked me 4 years ago if i might have a gluten issue i would have laughed at you.
        As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

        Ernest Hemingway

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
          but most people think like you do and aren't all that concerned with gluten believing their ill health is both normal and unrelated to gluten.

          for years i thought i was lactose-intolerant, even went on a soy-cheese phase. blech. was smugly superior about the healthy whole grains and lack of meat in my low-fat diet. i was alwaysalwaysalways sick. all year long i had sinus/allergy/bronchial issues that were debilitating. normal right?

          i cut out grains and legumes and nearly overnight my health improved. in almost 4 years i haven't had a cough, cold or sniffle. my insomnia is gone. my night-sweats are gone. my restlessness is gone. my hair and nails grow like weeds.

          if you had asked me 4 years ago if i might have a gluten issue i would have laughed at you.
          Okay, so in your situation, you were showing ill health and didn't consider gluten as a culprit. I'm talking about people who are perfectly healthy, including myself. I eat grains on a regular basis, I'm perfectly healthy, I don't have any symptoms of intolerance, no digestive issues, never get sick; and I know plenty of others that are the same way. And I've done the elimination method, felt no difference. I know this is an n=1, but I'm just giving an example.

          Of course, if someone was having digestive issues, sick all the time, etc. etc. like you said, then there would be reason to suspect intolerance. But if not, I don't see the reason to demonize grains, assuming they are in the context of a balanced diet that controls calorie and macronutrient intake.
          My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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          • #65
            Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
            I don't get obsessive with the gluten issue unless the person is worried that it might be a problem.
            But so many people have no idea that gluten is an issue. Hence, why so many of us recommend the elimination as a first step for everyone. Ok, if after you've done that for a couple of months you haven't noticed any benefit to avoiding gluten and experience no side affects when introducing it, fill your boots. That's your perogative.
            If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

            Originally posted by tfarny
            If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Misabi View Post
              But so many people have no idea that gluten is an issue. Hence, why so many of us recommend the elimination as a first step for everyone. Ok, if after you've done that for a couple of months you haven't noticed any benefit to avoiding gluten and experience no side affects when introducing it, fill your boots. That's your perogative.
              Yes, which is why I recommend the elimination method.

              But, to be honest, some people truly don't care. They don't want to be overwhelmed with a crap-ton of information on why certain foods may be bad for them, they just want to look better naked. At this point, unless there is serious reason for concern, I don't think there is a ton of use stressing about it. Dieting is about what the individual will adhere to. Of course, sometimes the purely health related side is a different story.

              That was a bit tangential, but just making a point.
              My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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              • #67
                Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post

                Of course, if someone was having digestive issues, sick all the time, etc. etc. like you said, then there would be reason to suspect intolerance. But if not, I don't see the reason to demonize grains, assuming they are in the context of a balanced diet that controls calorie and macronutrient intake.
                but that's the disconnect -- without digestive issues people do not think a food is the culprit for their ills.

                something insidious like inflammation may take decades to manifest into a diagnosis. so yeah, you're "fine" now.
                As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                Ernest Hemingway

                Comment


                • #68
                  True story: when I went to see an orthopedic surgeon about the pain in my feet, he told me I should get used to increasing lack of mobility. When I went carb-free for a couple of days, the pain and swelling magically went away. If I had not done that, I would still have painful, swollen feet (and all the other random symptoms that went away, too).

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                    but that's the disconnect -- without digestive issues people do not think a food is the culprit for their ills.

                    something insidious like inflammation may take decades to manifest into a diagnosis. so yeah, you're "fine" now.
                    I feel fine, my bloodwork is fine, and I know plenty of others who are the same. I'm not going to live my life restricting food that I enjoy just because there's a slight possibility that it could maybe, possibly cause some inflammation in the future. I'm sorry, but as things are going, I'm doing just fine, and I will continue to enjoy eating what I enjoy eating without regret.

                    I guess I'm weird, but that's my approach.
                    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                      True story: when I went to see an orthopedic surgeon about the pain in my feet, he told me I should get used to increasing lack of mobility. When I went carb-free for a couple of days, the pain and swelling magically went away. If I had not done that, I would still have painful, swollen feet (and all the other random symptoms that went away, too).
                      That's awesome. The problem is that your situation doesn't apply to everyone. So if you were to tell someone who is healthy to cut out carbs completely because it worked for you, it could cause some issues. Low-carb diets are certainly not for everyone.

                      It's all about individualization.
                      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                        I feel fine, my bloodwork is fine, and I know plenty of others who are the same. I'm not going to live my life restricting food that I enjoy just because there's a slight possibility that it could maybe, possibly cause some inflammation in the future. I'm sorry, but as things are going, I'm doing just fine, and I will continue to enjoy eating what I enjoy eating without regret.

                        I guess I'm weird, but that's my approach.
                        We're not really trying to convince you to restrict your intake of anything. Like, go for it. We're trying to convince you to stop trying to convince other people not to try for themselves, or even just to consider the possibility. When you say that only a tiny portion of the public is gluten intolerant/celiac/allergic and that's 7-10%, that's 30 million people, people who constantly hear that hardly anybody can't eat wheat, most people who do stop eating wheat are doing it because it makes them feel "special", and wheat is an important part of everyone's diet and a good source of protein and other nutrition.

                        Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                        That's awesome. The problem is that your situation doesn't apply to everyone. So if you were to tell someone who is healthy to cut out carbs completely because it worked for you, it could cause some issues. Low-carb diets are certainly not for everyone.

                        It's all about individualization.
                        My situation, that giving up gluten results in resolution of symptoms seemingly unrelated to digestion, is very common, as is having such symptoms and being unaware that they could be caused by gluten. A lifetime of canker sores? Gone. Inflamed gums? Gone. Insomnia? Gone.

                        Did the dentist or the orthopedic surgeon suggest I should consider the possibility? No. I might be in a wheelchair and 150 pounds overweight right now if I hadn't figured it out with no help from the medical establishment.

                        I gave up carbs for 2 days because I'd been eating too much of them. Tons of artisan bread and kamut pilaf. I thought the problem was too much carbs, but it wasn't. Why would I tell people to go VLC?
                        Last edited by eKatherine; 06-24-2013, 04:57 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Comments in Bold.
                          Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                          That's awesome. The problem is that your situation doesn't apply to everyone. The problem is, I think that many more people are intolerent to gluten than is currently diagnosed. So if you were to tell someone who is healthy to cut out carbs completely because it worked for you, it could cause some issues. You keep confusing this as a low carb issue. It is not. It's a 'wheat is bad for you' issue. Low-carb diets are certainly not for everyone. I agree.

                          It's all about individualization.
                          I agree that everyone has to find what works for them too, since everyone has their own set of hormone levels and gut bacteria, they will react differently to different things. I still think that wheat basically isn't good for anyone, any more than a cigarette is.
                          I have not once said that you're not better off eating "more nutritious" food. I'm saying it comes down to personal preference.
                          I guess it's my personal preference to eat more nutritious food then......
                          If someone wants to eat grains, for whatever reason, then they can definitely be part of a healthy diet. McDonalds.... This is where everyone disagrees with me.

                          Again, it's all dose-specific, and it's all about context. For example, of course sugar is bad for you if you consume it in excess. But is sugar toxic in small amounts among a balanced diet? Absolutely not (sorry Dr. Lustig). So I'm going to keep saying it: it comes down to the overall context of the diet, and in my opinion, grains are not evil in every situation.
                          Yes, I agree that the dose makes the poison. A couple of months ago we had people over for lunch and they brought over a chocolatey cake thing for dessert. And we ate it. It was delicious.

                          I also agree with you that some of the fears of wheat are likely incorrect (I still think that anti-oxidants are good for you, for example).
                          Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                          Griff's cholesterol primer
                          5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                          Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                          TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                          bloodorchid is always right

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                            Low-carb diets are certainly not for everyone.
                            avoiding grains doesn't automatically = low-carb.
                            As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                            Ernest Hemingway

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              I have to wonder about the intent of your original post. Was it simply to tell those of us whose bodies can't deal with grains that we are delusional?

                              Eat all the grains you want. Hopefully you won't pay for it one day as many of us have. But stop trying to convince others that intolerance to grains is a rare thing b/c it isn't.
                              Starting Weight: 197.5
                              Current Weight: 123
                              Far healthier!

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                              • #75
                                Guys, I'm not confusing the grain issue with a low carb issue, I only brought up carbs again because eKatherine brought up her story about carbs (randomly, I must say) and it made me go on a tangent.

                                I understand that there are people who don't know they are gluten intolerant. I get it. But, when trying to help someone adjust their diet, bring up the fact that they might be allergic to something even though they are asymptomatic only causes excess stress and confusion.
                                My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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