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I wish Mark (or someone else) writes a response to this...

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  • #46
    Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    That's the whole point. Comparing grains to real food is ridiculous. That's the reason to eat it. They universally suck as a source of nutrition.
    Comparing protein sources to a carbohydrate source, in terms of overall nutrition and physiological effects on the body, is foolish.
    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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    • #47
      Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
      No, the questions that haven't been addressed are my #1 and #2.

      I.E. This weekend was a LONG hike, which I did after fasting for 36 hours. Seeing as my basal rate is about 2900 Kcal, it is fair to say that between my fasting and hiking for 7 hours, I had created a HUGE calorie deficit. It is MY core paleo principle, and I don't care to argue it now. Fasting is human.

      So conservatively, the fasting created a deficit of of 4300 kCal just at basal rate.
      Then add in the hiking for 7 hours (it was actually longer, but just for the math). Using a basic calorie calculator as a guide, at 185 lbs, walking up hill half of it with 25lb pack on, that burned about 600kCal per hour. That's 4200 kCal of deficit I had created by Saturday night from hiking alone. That is 8500kCal deficit total. I am in huge glycogen deficit. Any carbs I take in are going to go to refilling it. Insulin is my friend at that moment. It is the energy gatekeeper to help me recover.

      Now, the question is this, and it is why those people previously mentioned don't 100% outlaw grains....if I can use some grains, along with the turkey legs I made and a lot of veg (I made fajitas), to makeup that calorie deficit....AND I have no ill effects, why would I not do it?

      Disclaimer:
      (Saying "eat a sweet potato instead" isn't an answer. You could do that down to "eat skirt steak and green peppers for every meal". Life needs enjoyment. Taste matters.)

      "A good teacher knows the rules. A great pupil knows the exceptions."
      I can not tell you why YOU would not, but I can tell you why I would not.... and why I recommend many others don't. Some of that is in my answer on the first page. And guess what. Insulin and carbs are way down on the list as to reasons to exclude them. Fact its so low I wouldn't even bother going that far.

      Assuming you wish to eat grains though WAPF is the resource I would use to produce those with the least likelihood of ill effect. Not to mention we all know that "grains" are on a continuum of rice (fairly inert) - GMO dwarf wheat (this aint food). So if someone is choosing to include nutritionally devoid items simply for caloric load then choose that item and prep method wisely.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
        Comparing protein sources to a carbohydrate source, in terms of overall nutrition and physiological effects on the body, is foolish.
        What's the nutrition you get from carbs, other than calories?

        And can't you get calories pretty easily from fat OR carbs? Or even protein?
        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

        Griff's cholesterol primer
        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
        bloodorchid is always right

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        • #49
          Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
          What's the nutrition you get from carbs, other than calories?

          And can't you get calories pretty easily from fat OR carbs? Or even protein?
          Carbs are necessary to fuel intense activity, they can be protein sparing in the instance of a caloric deficit, they taste good (and therefore are great for adherence to the diet), they replenish glycogen stores (which, again, are needed to fuel intense activity).

          Not really sure what you're trying to say, maybe you could re-phrase?
          My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            Insulin and carbs are way down on the list as to reasons to exclude them. Fact its so low I wouldn't even bother going that far.
            Please expand on what you're getting at here.
            My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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            • #51
              Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
              Please expand on what you're getting at here.
              Hmmm. Oh, just that I listed my reasons on page one and that doesn't even take carb load or insulin spikes into consideration.

              The poster I quoted was making the assumption (it seemed to me) that the biggest concern or complaint about grains where these things. He phrased his response in a way that argued for grains in the context of NEEDING that insulin spike and carb load to fill glycogen stores. I see this whole line of discussion (carb load and insulin spiking) as irrelevant to the topic at hand. Carbs and subsequent insulin spikes are not specific to grains alone and IMO aren't worth discussing in the context of "why should I avoid grains".

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                Carbs and subsequent insulin spikes are not specific to grains alone and IMO aren't worth discussing in the context of "why should I avoid grains".
                Oh ok. I agree.
                My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                  Carbs are necessary to fuel intense activity, they can be protein sparing in the instance of a caloric deficit, they taste good (and therefore are great for adherence to the diet), they replenish glycogen stores (which, again, are needed to fuel intense activity).

                  Not really sure what you're trying to say, maybe you could re-phrase?
                  The OP was talking specifically about grains, not carbs in general.

                  I personally think that I'd rather get energy from other sources like fat, or carbs like potatoes, bananas etc than bread.
                  Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                  Griff's cholesterol primer
                  5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                  Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                  TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                  bloodorchid is always right

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                    The OP was talking specifically about grains, not carbs in general.

                    I personally think that I'd rather get energy from other sources like fat, or carbs like potatoes, bananas etc than bread.
                    You said carbs in the post that I was responding to.

                    And that's your personal preference. If someone who I'm giving dietary advice adheres to a diet better when their carb sources are predominantly grains, and they don't have a gluten issue, I'm not going to tell them to stop eating grains. It's about the context of the diet and the individual situation.
                    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                      You said carbs in the post that I was responding to.

                      And that's your personal preference. If someone who I'm giving dietary advice adheres to a diet better then their carb sources are predominantly grains, and they don't have a gluten issue, I'm not going to tell them to stop eating grains. It's about the context of the diet and the individual situation.
                      Given the insidious onset of gluten related symptoms and issues associated with wheat consumption in the western world what sort of procedures would you set in place to determine who should vs should not consume them then? And would there be ongoing monitoring for future development of intolerance? Would you be recommending certain grains over others and would you promote a certain way of preparing them? Those are some of the issues I think anyone even considering wheat/grain consumption need to answer.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                        Given the insidious onset of gluten related symptoms and issues associated with wheat consumption in the western world what sort of procedures would you set in place to determine who should vs should not consume them then? And would there be ongoing monitoring for future development of intolerance? Would you be recommending certain grains over others and would you promote a certain way of preparing them? Those are some of the issues I think anyone even considering wheat/grain consumption need to answer.
                        As I've mentioned several times earlier, the elimination method is usually pretty effective, if the person is even worried about the gluten issue. For someone trying to lose fat, for simplicity sake, the less refined is obviously better. Other than that, as long as calorie and macronutrient totals are under control (this is highly individual), it doesn't matter.

                        This is from a body composition standpoint, helping someone lose fat. Most of the time, fat loss = better health markers. I don't get obsessive with the gluten issue unless the person is worried that it might be a problem.
                        My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                        • #57
                          Ah, well that would be why we have different perspectives. My main focus with people isn't necessarily body comp. Thats just a side effect.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                            You said carbs in the post that I was responding to.
                            Yes, which was itself a response to "Comparing protein sources to a carbohydrate source, in terms of overall nutrition and physiological effects on the body, is foolish."

                            I still think that the point choco was making (eat nutritious whole foods like say salmon instead of flour) is a good one.

                            Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                            And that's your personal preference. If someone who I'm giving dietary advice adheres to a diet better when their carb sources are predominantly grains, and they don't have a gluten issue, I'm not going to tell them to stop eating grains. It's about the context of the diet and the individual situation.
                            I agree, although I think that the population at large's issues with wheat are much greater than just 'celiac or not'.

                            I think that there's a whole spectrum of problems wheat brings, and it provides nothing indispensible, so it's easy to jettison from your diet if you are only considering a nutritional perspective.
                            Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                            Griff's cholesterol primer
                            5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                            Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                            TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                            bloodorchid is always right

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              Ah, well that would be why we have different perspectives. My main focus with people isn't necessarily body comp.
                              But the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Like I said, health markers generally improve as body composition improves, assuming you're not getting into the lower levels of body fat.
                              My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                                I still think that the point choco was making (eat nutritious whole foods like say salmon instead of flour) is a good one.
                                This is like the people who say calories are not all created equal, then going on to compare 3,000 calories of sugar vs. 3,000 calories of broccoli. The comparison is way out of context, which makes it a bit ridiculous.
                                My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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