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  • For what's it worth, Susan Alberts suggests using fogging technique to deal with the inner critic, the absolute thoughts that crate conflict. I.e a thought "I am fat" or I am stupid' should not be confronted directly by the "I am NOT!" and evolving into a protracted heated argument. Instead, use a degree of agreement, and work past it: It is true that I am not slender. It is not my best year. I can improve a little every day..." etc. In other words, you defuse the inner conflict from acute, and hopefully, eliminate it.
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
      Hi Yogabear,
      Sorry I'm late to your thread, but I really think I can help you and the other folks in this thread, to lose some weight. I'll just come straight out with the protocol, then go into a little bit of info to back up the protocol:

      Our Diet, it was obvious. Through a SAD diet our metabolisms are subject to many destructive and chronic stressors, some examples are, PUFA's, free radicals, BPA's etc, etc as destructive stressors. Calorie excess, carb and fat excess, insuline spiking as a result of sugar etc, etc as chronic stressors. hell you can even find chronic stressors in the paleosphere like... daily calorie deficits, daily VLC, daily IF, same daily macros etc etc. Anyway I also ran the idea through a grok filter and yep it checked out, grok definitely would've faced acute dietary stressors/challenges pretty much constantly, think... big game kills, poisonous berries, seasonal fruits and vegetables, food shortages etc etc.
      Originally posted by Leida View Post
      Thank you for the thought, but by now I am not able to tolerate anything that is deliberately unnatural, macros, feeding windows or calories restrictions. Numbers eventually lead to failure.
      Thanks so much for this DH - I totally buy that it would work and I take CICO with a pinch of salt (too many variables). However, I'm on the same page as Leida in that a dozen years of dieting (nearly half my life) has left me completely burnt out by restriction. Every diet I went on worked... while I was on it.

      But maybe if this works to restore the metabolism, it's different? Are you still following this protocol, or have you shifted back to a regular Paleo way of eating?

      Originally posted by Leida View Post
      For what's it worth, Susan Alberts suggests using fogging technique to deal with the inner critic, the absolute thoughts that crate conflict. I.e a thought "I am fat" or I am stupid' should not be confronted directly by the "I am NOT!" and evolving into a protracted heated argument. Instead, use a degree of agreement, and work past it: It is true that I am not slender. It is not my best year. I can improve a little every day..." etc. In other words, you defuse the inner conflict from acute, and hopefully, eliminate it.
      I actually think the inner critic is a result of hormonal imbalances... Whenever my stress hormones are high, I can't cope with my appearance. When I feel calm, relaxed: *poof* -- no inner critic. In my experience, self-talk doesn't work.
      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

      - Ray Peat

      Comment


      • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
        Thanks so much for this DH - I totally buy that it would work and I take CICO with a pinch of salt (too many variables). However, I'm on the same page as Leida in that a dozen years of dieting (nearly half my life) has left me completely burnt out by restriction. Every diet I went on worked... while I was on it.

        But maybe if this works to restore the metabolism, it's different? Are you still following this protocol, or have you shifted back to a regular Paleo way of eating?
        Thanks for the interest yogabear. Yes I am still eating this way, It is modified slightly from the above regimen as I am sustaining not repairing. Basically I don't have to challenge my metabolism as often to keep the wheels greased. Me and my wife don't even think/remember we are on a diet, We have varied lives and our diet follows along. eg. if I have a job on in the day, it's great chance to skip breakfast and lunch. Once a week I play competitive football I find myself having alot to eat (binge) the day after (restoring my glycogen probably). Sometimes we score a great deal at the butchers or a tray of mangoes from dad, (guess what were eating the next day?). If I find that I've gone a coupla weeks without a particular challenge, I'll throw one in.

        ------------

        Ok back to your questions (I'm working back wards through your quote hehe),
        This protocol is all about restoring your metabolism, It is about getting the full use of ALL your metabolic tools. I'll go off on a bit of a tangent here, hopefully it will further your understanding (it's from a future thread I'm yet to write).

        Basically everything on this planet exists on a fragility scale. For all of history an object/thing existed on the fragility scale some where between extremely fragile to very robust, regarding any particular stress. Also existing on this planet for all of history (according to an object/thing) is a stressor. A stressor might be an earthquake, the sun, a food stuff, a load, the wind, another object, a fall, a transfer of energy, a change in stock price, get my drift?
        So if we have a bit of a look at stress in the eye's of an object, we can see stress taking one of three forms... A Stressor could be "destructive" if it is too acute/strong for the object to handle, the object then breaks and is said to be fragile to that stress.
        A stressor could be "chronic" in that an object has to deal with the stressor for too long, it starts out robust then ends up fragile to the stress (think metal fatigue).
        Finally a stressor can be "absorbed" with the object still as it was before the stressor came, the object is said to be robust to this stress.

        The above has been common human knowledge for eons....

        Until last year when a certain Nassim Taleb (an ex options trader on the NYSE) released a book, based on his forming of a new word called antifragile. Something that is antifragile actually gains from absorbable stressors. It turns out that most life on this planet has this ability. Here's an example of how this came about and why it is.... an organism senses a stress incoming, it gathers all its tools it has evolved to absorb this stressor and pits them against the stress, If the organism comes out the otherside still intact, it high fives and congratulates it self cause it is robust to that stress, but the organism isn't out of the woods yet... what if next time the stress comes a little stronger? well the organism reacts to the stress it dealt with now and strengthens the tools it used to beat the stress so that next time it might be successful as well. this is the reason why; our skin goes brown in the sun, our muscles get bigger when we lift a weight, we can run further then we did last time, we are afraid of the things we have always been afraid of (the tool worked), you get my drift.

        So a stressor causes a response in an organism, stressors are information your body uses to reconfigure it self. There is also another factor that needs to be considered, In the absence of stress our bodies atrophy their systems (don't need big strong tools sittin round taking up resources if we don't need to use them). In short, organisms need stressors to live, to configure their physical forms.
        The only trouble with this antifragility system arises when the stressor that comes is "destructive" or "chronic". when this happens we are even more awesome than I described above, our bodies can heal themselves (think broken arm from a tree fall) even if a stressor was destructive, although this is not a permanent solution.

        lets summarize my points so far:
        *Stressors come as either absorbable, destructive or chronic.
        *Lack of stressors is harmful.
        *Stressors can cause us to be fragile and break, they can also cause us to get stronger and grow.
        *Our bodies can heal the damage caused by destructive stressors, though over time we will eventually fail at healing.


        Ok this is where we get back to the concerns of MDA readers.
        Food = Stressor.
        Mark Sisson has done a great job of reducing the stressors our bodies face coming down their gullets on a daily basis (by introducing his primal food list), particularly destructive stressors... PUFA's, free radicals, heavy metals, BPA's, preservatives, anti-nutrients (from grains, legumes) and many more all destroy our bodies on a daily basis, which we have to (awesomely) repair on a daily basis (think high cholesterol, inflammation etc etc), thanks mark

        So as MDA readers we have really only greatly reduced destructive stressors in our diet, we are still subject to lack of stressors and to chronic stressors. This is where we get to your metabolism yogabear and others, If you follow any number of the CW eating protocols trumpeted in this forum, like daily Reduced calorie, daily specific macro percentages, daily low and very low carb, you very much expose your self to both chronic stress and lack of stress, both causeing metabolic problems.

        Where my protocol steps in to help is thus; It gives your metabolism a specific stressor that it has to use specific tools to deal with, then it gives your metabolism a rest from using those tools, so that it may get a chance to make those tools stronger (hence antifragility)(this is the same concept as building muscle), this greatly reduces chronic stressors faced by your body. Also by providing your metabolism every stressor it has the tools to deal with, it stops the atrophy of organ function, systems etc that result from a lack of particular stressors.

        So the basic premise of my protocol is to:
        *eat foods off marks primal food list to reduce the destructive stressors going down ya gullet.
        *eat those foods under varied conditions so that they don't start becoming a chronic stressor.
        *make sure all the dietary conditions our bodies evolved to deal with are present, so that the body shan't suffer from lack of stressors.

        If all these are present in your eating philosophy, after a short while your body will magically configure it self to what is it's ideal configuration. Your metabolism will be fully online, it will not require your (conscious) input to self sustain these ideal conditions (ie you won't have to count calories). If you have specific problems with your "tools" (eg a thyroid problem) it may take you longer, with harder work (more conscious effort) to achieve ideal configuration, but it is possible. Many people have walked despite doctors telling them they will never walk. how did they do it? They unknowingly used our bodies "antifragility" to slowly increase their legs ability to overcome specific stressors, I imagine the same would apply to our organs / metabolism.

        -------

        On leida's question of complexity, restrictiveness and unnaturalness of this protocol, well from what I have seen of other protocols on MDA I think this one sits as one of the most simple and unrestrictive, I'll show you an example (this is where i think Leida is getting stuck as well)

        If some one reads my protocol and see's 20 - 30 lines of info with more than 10 different instructions they believe it to be harder, more restrictive more complex than the following example of a one line protocol:

        You must count the calories and macro's of all the food you eat and then eat 2000 cals a day and macros at 50/20/30 F,C,P.

        There it is, one line, it must be the most simple, unrestrictive protocol getting round right? wrong. The above protocol would take immense conscious effort. My protocol can be done as simply as the following thoughts:
        *Hrrm might skip breaky and lunch tomorrow (1-2 seconds)
        *Wow, steak and wheat free sausages are on special, might have meat day tomorrow (1-2 seconds)
        *Geez lots fruit and vegges left in the fridge, might have a green and yellows day today, so food won't be wasted when I go shopping in a few days (2-3 seconds)

        You've totaled between 10 - 20 seconds of consious brain time and your diet is configured for the week, amazing!!!.

        Also as to your first paragraph I quoted, If you've read and comprehended my shamefully large post you may begin to comprehend why you are feeling burnt out from years of restriction (a hint: CHRONIC & 'ABSENCE of' STRESSORS)

        I hope this has been more of a help in your primal journey.
        Cheers, dilberryhoundog.
        Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 06-14-2013, 03:49 AM. Reason: grammar
        A little primal gem - My Success Story
        Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

        Comment


        • Yeah, except the moment my mind tells me that I need to skip breakfast or lunch, I go into hours of arguing with myself, and eat it anyway because I can't stand missing it any more.

          It's even worse with having a day with no fruit. The problem is that I grew absolutely incapable of skipping meals and not eating fruit. It basically leads down to hysteria in about 2-3 hours. I can only take being hungry in stride if I get to eat fruit, and not skip meals. I dunno why.

          I have already eliminated all sweeteners, all food additives, dairy, coffee, nightshades, eggs and now working on dropping nuts. Don't want any restrictions on top of that. I want easy rather than challenging. I am frigging tired of challenges.

          Gonna try to run sprints today at lunch if it doesn't rain. Gods, of all forms of exercise running sprints is the second one on my "I hate it' list. The first being, he spinning/biking. I almost hope it rains. I almost wish one could lose weight by climbing into bed and sleeping.

          I guess I am firmly stuck in the "I wish I could lose 15-20 lbs' and complete unwillingness of doing things that can actually make me lose the weight. Just not enough motivation, I suppose.

          For now, I just need to concentrate on ditching the coconut milk/almond butter with my tea, and just having more fruit in the evening. I need to break the mental block that carbs/fruit are bad & meat and fats are somehow better.
          Last edited by Leida; 06-14-2013, 06:10 AM.
          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Leida View Post
            I have already eliminated all sweeteners, all food additives, dairy, coffee, nightshades, eggs and now working on dropping nuts. Don't want any restrictions on top of that. I want easy rather than challenging. I am frigging tired of challenges.
            ^^^ this don't make any sense to me, This is an extremely restrictive diet, it seems far from easy and very challenging to conduct. I mean whats left for you to eat? meat, greens and fruit. Its no wonder you eat fruit all day, I would too if the only other choices where bland old meat and bland old vegges. If your allergic or physically reactive to all this stuff, then it might make a little sense, but if your actually restricting this stuff because you think its gunna make you lose weight, then I can see why you aren't losing weight.

            I eat nightshades, nuts, dairy, eggs, have a coffee once in a while, I probably get some sweeteners and additives too, as well as a whole range of other food stuffs, my diet is way way way way way way way way less restrictive than yours. I CHALLENGE MY METABOLISM WITH DIFFERENT FOOD, THE CHALLENGE ISN'T WITH MY MIND. My mind is free to think up great diet theory's, or what ever the hell it wants, it feels in no way challenged in regards to food.

            My metabolism is a MONSTER!!!! If you seen my metabolism walking down the street your metabolism would look twice and probably wolf wistle, my metabolism is SEXY, it has rippling muscles every where.

            If I where your dietician from what I have gleamed from a few of your posts this is what I would recommend:

            *First expand the list of foods you can eat, try to eat every thing on marks primal food lists (not at once hehe) including the "in moderation" foods, I wouldn't get you to do any protocol, just eat normally if you gained some weight it wouldn't matter. keep eating your fruit everyday.

            *once comfortable with that I would then get you to vary your fruit amounts per day, slowly (once or twice a week) and a little at the start, getting more varied as you got better at doing it, eventually getting it to the point where you could go with out fruit for a day (this could take weeks, months, years it wouldn't matter)

            *once you could do the no fruit for a day, i would get you to do that once a week, slowly shifting up to a few times a week. At this stage you would be pretty much clear of your fruit crutch, your metabolism would be a fruit master!!!!

            *I would then move onto the challenge of skipping a meal, first id get you to skip a meal on a day that you would eat fruit at the next meal, once mastered then I'd challenge you to skip a meal on a day you didn't eat fruit, once that happened your metabolism would be a meal skipping, fruit eating, master!!!!

            *You probably guessed it, slowly we would introduce other metabolic challenges untill your metabolism was a PRIMAL FOOD MASTER!!!!, your metabolism would be sexy, it would have rippling muscles every where.

            *At this stage your phisical body would probably follow suit and want rippling muscles as well, it would probably say "a sprint hell yeah lets do it" it would be sniffing around for different challenges because it would want to be a SEXY BEAST!!!! just like your metabolism. (see the point I'm trying to make here is that: if only we trained our metabolisms, like we trained our bodies, then shitloads of primal peoples would have better metabolisms)

            *eventually your body would settle at is ideal "stressor busting" configuraton, the beaut thing would be that your mind wouldn't have really had do do that much hard work, only to push your fruit eating and then meal skipping limits once or twice a week in the early stages of your journey.
            Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 06-14-2013, 08:27 AM.
            A little primal gem - My Success Story
            Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

            Comment


            • You know, I am sorry. I just wrote an angry post, but I should not get angry at you. You are trying to help and you still believe there is a spoon. Maybe you will keep believing, and more happy you will be for that.

              I tried all that stuff you are suggesting and went nowhere far. I believe the truth is that there is no spoon.

              So, I am trying to live and eat happy, according to my tastes and preferences, and adapt to the idea that I will always be 'not fat' (or maybe even outright fat few years down the road). Maybe it's not a bad thing.
              Last edited by Leida; 06-14-2013, 08:53 AM.
              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
              When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

              Comment


              • no worries, stick with the fruit then. Just get in and mix up what ever you can, change your daily meat intake, same for vegges, have a meat + fruit day throw in a Vegge + fruit day, do a just fruit day, mix them up too, don't have to do em on a set shedule, just do em when ever comfy.
                Stay clear of anything that gives you inflammation like your nightshades etc but keep in mind that as your metabolism gets more robust and antifragile from other sources, the inflammation will probably start to subside from those trigger foods and you'll eventually be able to incorporate them into your variations as well. What ever you can change up dietary wise is good.

                Please please please, what ever you do, just don't eat the same stuff every day, day upon day, even if its the tiniest variation, its better than aiming for stringent consistency, which will only lead to, or further exacerbate, chronic stress and metabolic atrophy.

                Edit: leida you changed your post above, puts mine out of context, its no worries, i'm just adding this for posterity.
                Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 06-15-2013, 05:52 AM.
                A little primal gem - My Success Story
                Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

                Comment


                • Hey dilberryhound, maybe you should start a new thread about this theory of yours. Then people who are interested could maybe try it and talk about it. It will be like the potato thread, the ADF thread, and the SLD thread.

                  Do you think your theory could be modified to work with ADF (alternate day fasting or Johnson's up day down day diet). That's what I'm doing right now. You basically alternate between high-calorie and low-calorie days. On low-calorie days, you eat 500 calories or less. On high-calorie days, well, it depends. You start out not counting, eat as much as you want. If you stall, then you might restrict to some extent. It works well for many people who can't stick to a constant moderate-calorie diet. I think the ADF model applies your theory of varying stressors. Instead of chronically stressing your body (and mind) with a stupid 1200-1600 calorie diet (what an average woman would have to eat at if she wants to lose weight), you alternate between extremes. It works way better for me because I can't psychologically deal with eating 1200-1600 calories a day, every day. It makes me feel constantly deprived. I much prefer eating very little (some down days, I eat less than 100 calories; others, I'll eat maybe 300) one day, then eating a lot the next. I think I might modify your protocol to work with ADF. I don't want to stop ADF because it's working for me, but I think it might work better if I incorporated some of your tips.

                  Anyway, you should start a new thread on this. I think I'll start incorporating some of your tips next week.

                  My journal

                  Comment


                  • Okay, nevermind. I just looked at your blog, and I see that you've already started a thread. I even recall reading that thread but must not have read very carefully. Well, in the beginning of April, which is when you started it, I was not yet ready to start restricting again, which explains why I didn't read it carefully. I will revive that thread once I start incorporating some of your tips next week.

                    My journal

                    Comment


                    • DH, thank you so much for all that info! It's really cool of you to take the time to write it all out. It actually sounds very similar to "The fast metabolism diet" which I was going to try once I got back from vacation. But yours sounds a little easier, and I second Diene's suggestion that you start a thread on it (I know there's already one but a fresh start might be good). I'll be the first on the bandwagon!

                      Leida, I think this should be called "The burn out thread" <3 I know how you feel: defeated. I'm just so exhausted by this dieting thing that changing anything feels like a huge amount of work. Saying that, I have just given up rice, as I know it bloats me.

                      Do you mind me asking - how long have you been dieting for? It was 13 years for me (with an ED on the side). Not surprising it eventually took its toll.
                      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                      - Ray Peat

                      Comment


                      • My first memory of restricted food intake was about 10-12 yo, when my mom forcefully removed my plate and my cousin tried to sneak some food to me, but I refused.

                        Mom put me on my first diet when I was 16, and came to the expedition chubby after staying with grandma for a month. After that it was always portion control. My first week-long fast was at 18 when mom considered me sufficiently grown up to sustain a fast. I did 1 day per week fast throughout the BSc in the University, and tried to control my food intake & workout from e-Diets CW and Buns of Steel in my twenties to paleo and heavy lifting in my now almost forties.

                        That's ages 16 through the age 38 = 22 years, minus about 3-4 years trying to conceive and after child-birth.

                        The only time I felt pretty happy with my body was after a long boring month with mom at age 22 in Crimea when we ate primarily fruit and veggies bought daily (and stringently) at the market and hiked/swim and roughed it out in the leased horrid room(s). I was 110 lbs when I came back, and mom thought I can carefully drop another 5 lbs or so to get a solid "A-" body. Of course that did not work, since I did have access to food, so I rolled back to "B-B-" by her scale.

                        And, yeah, I truly feel that I tried everything save for raw foods (raw meats) and veganism.
                        Last edited by Leida; 06-14-2013, 09:35 AM.
                        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                        When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                        Comment


                        • dilberryhoundog Would you summarize the resulting actions of your theory to varying your food and macros often? I do that a bit currently but it is interesting the way you lay out the ideas behind it. Some days for lunch at work I will eat leftovers of groundbeed with butternut squash.. and the next day I might eat 400g of carbs from bananas and dates.

                          I also think this fits into more logical primal. As if primal ate high fat on a daily basis.. makes no sense to me. If a primative tribe came across a field of tubers and pollen.. guess what they might not eat for weeks.. fat and much protein.
                          Last edited by statikcat; 06-14-2013, 09:50 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Leida--I think your overly self-critical attitude about your body possibly came from your mom. It seems like she was very critical of your body when you were young.

                            My journal

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by diene View Post
                              Leida--I think your overly self-critical attitude about your body possibly came from your mom. It seems like she was very critical of your body when you were young.
                              Yeah, this makes much more sense now. Leida, your mother emotionally abused you and totally f*cked up your sense of selfworth and body image. For the love of god let it go. (Yes, I know, much easier said than done, but seriously).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                                My first memory of restricted food intake was about 10-12 yo, when my mom forcefully removed my plate and my cousin tried to sneak some food to me, but I refused.

                                Mom put me on my first diet when I was 16, and came to the expedition chubby after staying with grandma for a month. After that it was always portion control. My first week-long fast was at 18 when mom considered me sufficiently grown up to sustain a fast. I did 1 day per week fast throughout the BSc in the University, and tried to control my food intake & workout from e-Diets CW and Buns of Steel in my twenties to paleo and heavy lifting in my now almost forties.

                                That's ages 16 through the age 38 = 22 years, minus about 3-4 years trying to conceive and after child-birth.

                                The only time I felt pretty happy with my body was after a long boring month with mom at age 22 in Crimea when we ate primarily fruit and veggies bought daily (and stringently) at the market and hiked/swim and roughed it out in the leased horrid room(s). I was 110 lbs when I came back, and mom thought I can carefully drop another 5 lbs or so to get a solid "A-" body. Of course that did not work, since I did have access to food, so I rolled back to "B-B-" by her scale.

                                And, yeah, I truly feel that I tried everything save for raw foods (raw meats) and veganism.
                                It takes a long time to undo a life time of programming. When I step back and look at how I look at myself it's really horrific. I have major body dysmorphia. I was looking in the mirror this morning, and all I saw was a body that is an American size 16 (I'm a 6-8). It's totally fucked up. I constantly find myself looking at kids of 14 and being jealous of their figures. I blame the world for making me like this, but it's something deeper within me.

                                Luckily I'm kind of reaching a point where I can see the insanity of these thoughts. It doesn't mean they aren't there, but I'm getting more clarity on them. Now I at least recognise that it's ridiculous for a 31 year old woman to want to have the figure of a teenager. It's helping me as well to recognise that at least I have recovered from an ED, and it doesn't rule my life anymore, though the thoughts still exist.

                                Leida, can you think of anything that you've overcome in the procress of the last few months, that make the weight gain worthwhile?
                                "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                                In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                                - Ray Peat

                                Comment

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