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Question minimum Carb intake for brain when NOT in Ketosis

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  • Question minimum Carb intake for brain when NOT in Ketosis

    It is advised to take less than 50g carb a day to stay in ketosis.
    Also, as far as I know, it is said that brain needs 100~150g carb a day.
    Now, what happens if I take 50 ~ 100g carb a day which will not induce ketosis but also not enough to fuel brain without ketone?

  • #2
    Ketone level is a gradient. It's never "on" or "off" until we draw an arbitrary line. At the 50g~100g level I suspect you'll flirt with higher ketones overnight then decrease them after the first meal.
    37//6'3"/185

    My peculiar nutrition glossary and shopping list

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    • #3
      Originally posted by picklepete View Post
      Ketone level is a gradient. It's never "on" or "off" until we draw an arbitrary line. At the 50g~100g level I suspect you'll flirt with higher ketones overnight then decrease them after the first meal.
      Thank you for the answer. I have a few follow-up questions.
      Then, what exactly is Ketosis? Does it just mean that the state in which ketone is constantly generated?
      Also, it is also said that a few days to a few weeks are need to be adapted to ketone.
      Is there any adverse effect using ketone as a brain for fuel when not in ketosis (so not adapted to ketone)?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by vincebae View Post
        Thank you for the answer. I have a few follow-up questions.
        Then, what exactly is Ketosis? Does it just mean that the state in which ketone is constantly generated?
        Also, it is also said that a few days to a few weeks are need to be adapted to ketone.
        Is there any adverse effect using ketone as a brain for fuel when not in ketosis (so not adapted to ketone)?
        The human body can operate entirely off of glucose if necessary, but most people produce some measure of ketones during the night due to a lack of food and the forced fast during sleep. Depending on your overall intake of carbs and the last time you are you may produce more or less ketones than others during the night but mst likely you will produce at least some.

        The state of ketosis is when your body is primarily utilizing ketones for fule however, and only utilizing the bare minimum of glucose necessary for survival. The more fat you costume and the less carbs, the more likely tht you will enter into this state. Different people have to restrict carbs more or less than others to hit this state and your level of physical activity can also make it more or less difficult for one to enter into a state of ketosis.
        "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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        • #5
          Originally posted by vincebae View Post
          Thank you for the answer. I have a few follow-up questions.
          Then, what exactly is Ketosis? Does it just mean that the state in which ketone is constantly generated?
          Also, it is also said that a few days to a few weeks are need to be adapted to ketone.
          Is there any adverse effect using ketone as a brain for fuel when not in ketosis (so not adapted to ketone)?
          The common definition for ketosis is (I think) a blood BOHB level of 0.5~3.0 mmol/liter. Average carbohydrate intake keeps people around 0.1~0.3. (For some reason people enjoy measuring acetone in urine but it's not the same thing).

          As I understand it ketone adaptation is mostly a concern for athletes who initially suffer reduced skeletal muscle performance on a VLC diet (light-moderate active people won't notice it). The brain is always capable of burning both glucose and ketones in whatever proportion is available at the moment. In fact all SCT and MCT fats we consume (butter, coconut) become ketones and find a good home regardless of our carb intake.
          37//6'3"/185

          My peculiar nutrition glossary and shopping list

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          • #6
            A clear explanation on wiki Ketosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
            When I'd had enough of the grain and starched based 'diabetic eating for health' diet (eating for health, my ass!) my weight was 242.5 lbs. On starting primal- 18th April 2013 weight : 238.1.
            27th July 2013. weight after 100 days 136.9 weight lost 101.2lb ; that's 105.6lbs since I stopped the 'diabetic eating for health'
            new journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1264082

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            • #7
              Originally posted by picklepete View Post
              (For some reason people enjoy measuring acetone in urine but it's not the same thing).
              Because it's cheap and easy, and that's what the diet books suggest doing. The ketone meter is not expensive, but the strips are costly.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by picklepete View Post
                The common definition for ketosis is (I think) a blood BOHB level of 0.5~3.0 mmol/liter. Average carbohydrate intake keeps people around 0.1~0.3. (For some reason people enjoy measuring acetone in urine but it's not the same thing).

                As I understand it ketone adaptation is mostly a concern for athletes who initially suffer reduced skeletal muscle performance on a VLC diet (light-moderate active people won't notice it). The brain is always capable of burning both glucose and ketones in whatever proportion is available at the moment. In fact all SCT and MCT fats we consume (butter, coconut) become ketones and find a good home regardless of our carb intake.
                It's only under conditions, like starvation, the brain can adapt to use alternative substrates such as ketones and lactate(not a good thing) to meet its energy requirements, through upregulating monocarboxlylic acid, which is usually followed by counterregulatory responses and the mild cognitive decline before severe dysfunction

                People seem to be misinformed. Oxidation of glucose is the main source of energy for brain function, which is why there are many transporter isoforms for the brain, whereas ketones are limited by transport capacity.
                Make America Great Again

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                  It's only under conditions, like starvation, the brain can adapt to use alternative substrates such as ketones and lactate(not a good thing) to meet its energy requirements, through upregulating monocarboxlylic acid, which is usually followed by counterregulatory responses and the mild cognitive decline before severe dysfunction

                  People seem to be misinformed. Oxidation of glucose is the main source of energy for brain function, which is why there are many transporter isoforms for the brain, whereas ketones are limited by transport capacity.
                  I should have said the brain will burn whatever fuel blend is present. The ideal fuel blend probably varies, e.g. it seems like higher BOHB cures migraines in some and causes depression in others.
                  37//6'3"/185

                  My peculiar nutrition glossary and shopping list

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                  • #10
                    This is a fascinating article on the subject:

                    Your Brain On Ketones | Psychology Today

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      This is a fascinating article on the subject:

                      Your Brain On Ketones | Psychology Today
                      Very interesting article Paleobird!!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                        This is a fascinating article on the subject:

                        Your Brain On Ketones | Psychology Today
                        Good link! Fat with protein is the priority source of energy for the body...if you have trouble with shifting from ketosis to non-ketosis your body isn't adapted to the normal human diet.

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                        • #13
                          That article reads off like a personal opinion(instantly invalidated) with no scientific basis nor does it elude to the negatives from sustained gluconeogenesis.
                          Make America Great Again

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                            That article reads off like a personal opinion(instantly invalidated) with no scientific basis nor does it elude to the negatives from sustained gluconeogenesis.
                            Gluconeogenesis isn't a huge concern when you are adapted to ketosis and your glucose needs drop dramatically to the bare minimum (like the scant amount needed by some brain tissue). If your body doesn't need glucose but has adequate and easy access to ketones through body or dietary fat why would it go through all the trouble of gluconeogenesis if it doesn't have to? It's just not the issue the carb loving crowd makes it out to be.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
                              Gluconeogenesis isn't a huge concern when you are adapted to ketosis and your glucose needs drop dramatically to the bare minimum (like the scant amount needed by some brain tissue). If your body doesn't need glucose but has adequate and easy access to ketones through body or dietary fat why would it go through all the trouble of gluconeogenesis if it doesn't have to? It's just not the issue the carb loving crowd makes it out to be.
                              Because glucose is the preferential fuel for the brain and body, of course. It does anything it can to make sure it acquires glucose in some way. There is no switch or adaptation short of prolonged starvation or ketosis diets, that's a myth a falsity.

                              Also, the fact, fat is an inefficient fuel as stated earlier.
                              Make America Great Again

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