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  • #31
    To get a fuller understanding of your numbers, these measures would also help:

    Basal (waking) and mid-day oral or armpit temperature
    Resting heart rate
    Fasting and post-meal blood glucose
    WBC count
    LDL-P
    CO2 and Blood Urea Nitrogen (from a metabolic panel)
    Blood oxygen level

    Do you know what any of them are?

    From your numbers, it looks like your diet is probably rather low in carbs and high in fat. Do you know about what your daily gram or percentage macronutrient intakes are?

    BTW, when you ask a LC-dominated forum if relatively high total and LDL cholesterol numbers are OK, you're likely to get multiple people saying it's fine, with some even high-fiving you, as this thread shows. There's a lot we don't know yet about the numbers for people on VLC diets, as VLC is so rare in recent history (since lipid data has been tracked). So other numbers, such as those I noted, may be helpful in assessing things.

    Re: high serum LDL in a context of meat cooked "close to charcoal," I suggest reading Chris Masterjohn's writings on oxidized LDL, such as here: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.c...evels-and.html and here http://chriskresser.com/the-healthy-...ast-episode-11
    Last edited by Paleophil; 03-16-2015, 08:10 PM.
    Originally posted by tatertot
    Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
    "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

    "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

    Comment


    • #32
      Hi Paleophil, no idea on any of that, except on the day of the test my blood sugar was 5.7 fasted (102.6). Looking at the other test results I can't see anything else in this test that matches that info. Though I believe leucocytes is related to White Blood Count which is 3.9 (optimum being 4~11). Resting heart rate just checking right now is 50 BPM. My blood pressure is excellent which was checked at the same time (I don't recall the numbers though).

      One thing to note, I know in times past my morning fasted blood sugar is actually 90~95 range which I believe is actually low. I started eating 3 basil nuts before bed and that eliminated the morning fugue I would experience on many days even with a good night sleep. That potentially pushed my blood sugar to 102. Which I believe is a tad high for fasted state. But my doctor said not to worry about it.

      Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
      To get a fuller understanding of your numbers, these measures would also help:
      From your numbers, it looks like your diet is probably rather low in carbs and high in fat. Do you know about what your daily gram or percentage macronutrient intakes are?
      Your on the money Paleophil. I eat paleo but its very low carb paleo. I rarely, if ever, eat fruits even berries. Though I think I'll go back to a daily dose of berries from today. One thing I do do slightly differently is that Sunday is my carb re-feed day so that day is actually very high carbs, moderate protein and low fat. I do this for sanity sake more than anything else.

      Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
      To get a fuller understanding of your numbers, these measures would also help:
      Re: high serum LDL in a context of meat cooked "close to charcoal," I suggest reading Chris Masterjohn's writings on oxidized LDL, such as here: The Daily Lipid: Genes, LDL-Cholesterol Levels, and the Central Role of LDL Receptor Activity In Heart Disease and here Episode 11 - Chris Masterjohn on cholesterol & heart disease (Part 1)
      Still working through these, the article is very interesting. Thanks for the links.
      Last edited by solomani; 03-17-2015, 03:32 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Those #'s you provided are quite helpful and fit with the overall picture of someone who has been too chronically VLC for too long. I had similar numbers in the past and used to believe the LC bloggers' and forum members' claims that there's nothing to worry about. Eventually, contrary evidence and personal experience caused me to stop believing them. Here is some info on why the overall picture these numbers provide is concerning:

        Is a very low carb diet - < 10% energy from carbs - sustainable long term?
        http://forum.betterhealthclue.com/in...html#msg104875
        (This forum is going to go away at the end of the month. The creator, Satya, didn't fare well in the longer term on Zero Carb, then tried "Dirty Carnivore" that included some plant foods, but found she did better when she added more carbs back into her diet.)
        Originally posted by tatertot
        Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
        "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

        "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
          Those #'s you provided are quite helpful and fit with the overall picture of someone who has been too chronically VLC for too long. I had similar numbers in the past and used to believe the LC bloggers' and forum members' claims that there's nothing to worry about. Eventually, contrary evidence and personal experience caused me to stop believing them. Here is some info on why the overall picture these numbers provide is concerning:

          Is a very low carb diet - < 10% energy from carbs - sustainable long term?
          Is a very low carb diet - < 10% energy from carbs - sustainable long term?
          Just finished reading it. Eye opening, maybe i have fallen into the too low carb for too long trap. Thinking back to when I first started dieting and taking care of my body a bit more (2009) I was happiest, healthiest and had better body compisition those first two years where all I did was restrict my carbs to 100g/day. Which was low for me since I averaged 300/day previously (sometimes much higher). I lost 30kg in 3 months. But my body composition slowly started getting worse and I started restricting carbs more and more until I was pretty much in ketosis everyday but still not thinning out. I have also started craving sweets, chocolate in particular, at night over the last few months. Which is a new thing.

          I think I may revert to that initial setup but aim to eat healthy carbs. Back then I just ate whatever. Do you have a link (or can you share) your story of reverting from VLC and what exactly triggered it? You alluded to a few things in that thread but no details. Also what exactly are "resistant starchs"?

          Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
          (This forum is going to go away at the end of the month. The creator, Satya, didn't fare well in the longer term on Zero Carb, then tried "Dirty Carnivore" that included some plant foods, but found she did better when she added more carbs back into her diet.)
          She is shutting down the forum because she is doing well?

          Comment


          • #35
            I’ll try to summarize, though this is an oversimplification as a result. It wasn’t so much a single thing that caused me to work on experimenting with improving my carb tolerance as it was a confluence of things, such as recognizing that I had multiple of the health markers and issues that other VLCers and ex-VLCers reported as early indicators of problems (including some similar numbers to those in this thread). Rather than coddle my system forever by avoiding nearly all carbs, I figured it made more sense to try to improve the underlying problems that were causing the carb intolerance to begin with.

            I found that resistant starch helped some with that and produced some improvements. I'm not in ideal shape, just doing better, so I wouldn't tout myself as a role model to emulate. RS is starch that is resistant to digestion. There is a massive thread on it in this forum.

            She is shutting down the forum because of lack of activity, and I think her and others doing better probably did play a part in that towards the end (there’s less reason to post on a forum if you’re doing well, though that can also be a selling point if people are willing to stay active and promote it). The forum actually first seemed to start to decline as multiple people there and elsewhere reported problems with VLC aka “Dirty Carnivore”--which was the original name of the forum--(and perhaps the general flattening of online interest in Paleo/LC in the last couple years contributed--search on "Paleo diet" at Google Trends to see this) and she started writing somewhat more positively about carbs and her diet gradually got somewhat “dirtier.” I suspect that some folks realized that chronic VLC was not all it was made out to be and just stopped participating without saying why (and people did tend to stop posting shortly after reporting that they were no longer VLC), and some committed VLCers were probably turned off by the increasingly moderate tone. Eventually, it became so clear that all was not well with VLC that she changed the name of the forum to Better Health Clue and talked about her more moderate diet. She also became less active at the forum herself, and it’s probably also harder to attract active users to a forum that doesn’t have a radical message that can develop a fervent following. I don't know for sure what the reasons were, though, so I'm speculating.

            [I'm sharing this info because I noticed that the numbers in this thread were similar to my past numbers, and also to those of others who experienced torpor and other issues after some time on chronic VLC. It's intended for those who are not sure that chronic VLC is working for them and are interested in a different perspective, not as bait for debaters. I think VLC may actually be a useful tool when used intermittently.]
            Last edited by Paleophil; 03-17-2015, 07:40 PM.
            Originally posted by tatertot
            Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
            "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

            "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

            Comment


            • #36
              Hey xfhfh, I worked out the day before but it was 24 hours before - that is, the morning before. So quite a big gap.

              Comment


              • #37
                So assuming it comes out high again what follow-up tests should I ask for to get more details?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Some tests to consider--some of these you can do yourself with inexpensive equipment:

                  LDL-P, ApoE4, ApoB
                  Basal (waking) and mid-day oral or armpit temperature
                  Resting heart rate
                  Fasting and post-meal blood glucose
                  WBC count
                  CO2 and Blood Urea Nitrogen (from a metabolic panel)
                  Blood oxygen level (from a pulse oximeter)

                  If the above are poor, then others to consider are:
                  IgG or IgM immunoglobulin subclass deficiency (immune deficiency, hypogammaglobulinemia)
                  Antinuclear Antibodies (ANA) (positive suggests autoimmunity)

                  ----

                  Here's how the numbers tend to go when chronic VLC is done too long and results in VLC torpor and/or immune deficiency (going by memory):

                  LDL-P, ApoE4, ApoB: high
                  Basal (waking) and mid-day oral or armpit temperature: low (see Ray Peat for good #'s--I'm not a Peatarian, but he gets some things, like this, right)
                  Resting heart rate: low (see Ray Peat for good #'s)
                  Fasting and post-meal blood glucose: above AVG and rising over time
                  WBC count: low
                  CO2: low (example: Gary Taubes reported a low number; see Ray Peat on the importance of CO2)
                  Blood Urea Nitrogen (from a metabolic panel): high (if too much protein is consumed)
                  Blood oxygen level (from a pulse oximeter): suboptimal (regularly below 99; FWIW, this one is just based on my own experience)

                  ----

                  ApoE4 is associated with higher total cholesterol and a greater risk of Alzheimer’s.

                  "Another view is that ApoE4 carriers are actually more sensitive to dietary fat, particularly saturated fat, as well as carbohydrate. William Davis MD has found When MIGHT statins be helpful? that for these individuals, moderation of both fat and carbs is necessary to avoid elevations in the number of LDL particles, particularly small dense LDL. ApoE4s should probably at least monitor their lipids and spring for the more advanced tests to note how fat and SFA affect LDL-P, LDL-C, and small dense LDL – just to be safe."
                  Read more: Dear Mark: ApoE4, Red Eye Recovery, TEDx Paleo Debunking, and Cough Drops | Mark's Daily Apple

                  LDL-P is obtained via an NMR LipoProfile -- get it done by LipoScience per Dr. Peter Attia
                  "ApoB testing is almost as good [as LDL-P] under most circumstances. That should be readily available." - Dr. Peter Attia
                  ‘Doc’ Describes Me As A ‘Dead Man Walking’ Because Of My Elevated LDL Cholesterol « Jimmy Moore's Livin' La Vida Low Carb Blog

                  ----

                  Interestingly, the immune system is known to be important in the aging process. Low immunity has been associated with rapid aging, and this fits with the rapid aging that Vilhjalmur Stefansson reported observing in the Inuit he lived with and said were eating a VLC diet. After some years eating VLC, some people started to say that I was aging rapidly, and I had noticed it myself, but dismissed it as just being overly lean and needing to add a bit of weight. Since adding more prebiotics and carbs to my diet, no one has remarked about rapid aging and one person said I look young for my age. I still think the main thing was I was just too gaunt on VLC and it also could all be coincidence, but it's lining up with what I learned. Plus, several people who started using prebiotic supplements like resistant-starch rich powders and capsules (such as potato starch and astragalus root) reported looking younger and shared photos to show that. Perhaps it's more than coincidence (BTW, I suspect that potato starch is a subpar source of RS, so I'm not recommending that specific source).
                  Last edited by Paleophil; 03-24-2015, 05:58 AM.
                  Originally posted by tatertot
                  Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                  "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                  "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    In the absence of inflammation high cholesterol is a sign of good health (within reason). There is no disputing that if you really read the literature. Curious what your trigs are at.....
                    Last edited by xghhf; 03-24-2015, 10:55 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Solomani's trigs were 52, which is borderline too low (though the real serious problems seem to tend to occur when people fall significantly below 50, chronically down into the 30's and below). A common VLC myth is that the lower the trigs, the better. See Knifegill's recent posts to see what can happen when your trigs and WBC count go too low (suggestive of immune deficiency), such as in this thread:

                      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread113517.html

                      (there are also research links there re: trigs).
                      Last edited by Paleophil; 03-25-2015, 04:46 AM.
                      Originally posted by tatertot
                      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                        LDL-P <- (high density check, blood),
                        ApoE4 <- (gene test?, blood?),
                        ApoB <- (heart related test, blood) Does this test also check for general inflammatory markers if you know?
                        WBC count <- (white blood cells, blood)
                        CO2 and Blood Urea Nitrogen (from a metabolic panel) <- not a straight blood test it sounds like?
                        Thanks Paleophil, these can all be extracted from a blood test? Have I got each one right in terms of proper name?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I did standup paddlesurf for 1.5 hours that morning before my blood work. No medication for blood pressure (6 years ago I got off both bp and cholesterol meds). I'll have to get a copy of the lab work to answer the rest...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by solomani View Post
                            Thanks Paleophil, these can all be extracted from a blood test? Have I got each one right in terms of proper name?
                            Right, they are on more extensive blood tests than the simple lipid tests. Your physician might be willing to do them if you express some concern about your numbers and say you want to get a better idea as to whether there are any problems. If necessary and you don't mind some tsk tsks, you could also explain that you have been eating an unusual diet and want to check if it's causing any longer-term issues.
                            Originally posted by tatertot
                            Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                            "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                            "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              High cholesterol is good


                              Sent from my iPod touch using Marks Daily Apple Forum

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Raw paleo matt View Post
                                High cholesterol is good


                                Sent from my iPod touch using Marks Daily Apple Forum
                                Not sure if you are serious, but many experts now believe (and I agree) that the total cholesterol number is pretty much irrelevant, and is neither a good or bad indicator in isolation. I'd go further to say that even the LDL number is irrelevant (whether calculated or not) without particle counts or NMR particle size information. That said, HDL level is important and everyone agrees higher is better. And triglyceride level is important and everyone agrees lower is better. But when it comes to LDL, it's more complicated.

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