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  • #31
    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
    Any examples on such a B.S. strength protocol Rich? Could have been funny to see whether it's possible to make gains even on a completley retarded protocol...
    Here's what I recall about the study: they took older women and had them work out with little dumbbells for a couple of months. So it was marginal.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      Any examples on such a B.S. strength protocol Rich? Could have been funny to see whether it's possible to make gains even on a completley retarded protocol...
      Taylor LW, Wilborn CD, Kreider RB, Willoughby DS. Effects of resistance exercise intensity on extracellular signalregulated
      kinase 1/2 mitogen-activated protein kinase activation in men. JSCR 2012:26(3); 599-607.

      Here's what Dr. Jonathon Sullivan had to say about the above in his review of the State of Exercise Science in 2012:

      Originally posted by Sullivan
      "IIB(2). Studies of MAPK, AMPK-Akt and mTOR signaling. The MAP kinase (MAPK) cascade
      has emerged as an important signaling pathway for cell function in general and for skeletal muscle
      hypertrophy in particular. This signal cascade is responsive to exercise stress and growth factor
      stimulation. Activation of the growth factor receptor by growth factor binding and phosphorylation
      triggers subsequent phosphorylation-activation events on MEKK, MAPK, and ERK, leading finally
      to the activation of transcriptional regulators like Elk, Fos and Jun, which mediate gene expression.
      Taylor et al29 sought to investigate whether differences in exercise intensity would differentially activate
      this signaling cascade, using a standard bro-bike-biopsy & blood model. Bros did leg extensions at 60%
      1RM (20x4) or 85% 1RM (10x4) followed by blood draws and biopsies. The results demonstrated a
      strong trend toward increased serum IGF-1 after both forms of exercise, greatest for the high intensity
      work. The authors dismiss this finding because it is not statistically significant, even though they provide
      no documentation that their study was powered to detect a significant difference, and even though
      The Year in Strength Science 2012
      2013 The Aasgaard Company 16 StartingStrength.com
      they detected a significant increase in IGF-1 receptor activation. Moreover, even though biopsies were
      taken and used for MEKK-ERK-Elk measurements, no effort was made to assay intramuscular IGF-
      1 levels to account for autocrine/paracrine elaboration of this growth factor. Both forms of exercise
      resulted in profound but similar increases in MEKK, ERK, and Elk phosphorylation. The authors
      claim their findings demonstrate that this signaling system is activated by resistance training in an
      intensity-independent manner.
      They demonstrate nothing of the sort. The failure to normalize intensity-volume products
      between the groups, the use of uncontrolled ELISA assays for phosphorylated proteins without
      assessment of total protein levels (an important control), the lack of a power analysis, potential
      problems with biopsy methodology, and the complete lack of any exploration of downstream effects
      make such conclusions untenable. This paper is an additional data point in favor of MAPK-ERK
      cascade signaling in response to resistance training, but its value should not be overstated."
      The Champagne of Beards

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      • #33
        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
        Here's what I recall about the study: they took older women and had them work out with little dumbbells for a couple of months. So it was marginal.
        Seem a bit unspecified, but I am almost sure that older untrained woman that train to failure on a few sets, 2 days a week with light pink colored dumbbells, will get strength gains, even if it's not the best strength training protocol perhaps...
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
          Taylor LW, Wilborn CD, Kreider RB, Willoughby DS. Effects of resistance exercise intensity on extracellular signalregulated
          kinase 1/2 mitogen-activated protein kinase activation in men. JSCR 2012:26(3); 599-607.

          Here's what Dr. Jonathon Sullivan had to say about the above in his review of the State of Exercise Science in 2012:
          Seem to be more of B.S. science and possible wrong conlucions, than a B.S strength protocol...
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            Seem to be more of B.S. science and possible wrong conlucions, than a B.S strength protocol...
            You don't have any problem with the use of leg extensions and claiming to apply the results to a strength training protocol in general? I do.

            I know there was another study published last year where they used some type of machine-based exercise and came to the "conclusion" that weight-bearing activity (of which none was actually performed) didn't have positive effects on bone density. Headdesk. I think Sully references it in that same article, if you want to take the time to read the whole thing (Which I did once. It was heavy lifting, but I think you'd come to the same conclusion about the current state of "exercise science." Or exercise "science").
            The Champagne of Beards

            Comment


            • #36
              Thanks sbhikes. That sounds a lot simpler than what I've been trying to do. Did you see improvement pretty quickly or was it slow?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                You don't have any problem with the use of leg extensions and claiming to apply the results to a strength training protocol in general? I do.
                A leg extension exercise taken to failure will build strength and muscle depending of the background of the individual. Maybe not the most optimal machine for an elite olympic lifter or a powerlifter, but it certainly has shown to build strength in the quadriceps...
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by ErinF View Post
                  Thanks sbhikes. That sounds a lot simpler than what I've been trying to do. Did you see improvement pretty quickly or was it slow?
                  At first it was pretty quick. I followed a program that had me add weight each week. I added 5lbs each week to lower body and 2.5lbs each week (using big washers I bought online) for upper body. A lot of the quick progress is just your body getting used to doing this kind of exercise, but still at some point I was used to it and building real strength and muscle.

                  The progress has slowed a lot lately (I guess these beginner programs like Starting Strength only work for a few months anyway) and I've dropped back some of the weights and have switched to a slower program. I have built noticeable muscle though, especially in my back, shoulders and upper arms. Not something anybody on the street would see, but my boyfriend notices. The best part is I feel really peppy and healthy now.
                  Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                  • #39
                    Awesome! That's what I'm hoping for.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                      A leg extension exercise taken to failure will build strength and muscle depending of the background of the individual. Maybe not the most optimal machine for an elite olympic lifter or a powerlifter, but it certainly has shown to build strength in the quadriceps...
                      Do you think it has the same hormonal effects as squatting a 150-lb sandbag? I sure wouldn't apply a study done with leg extensions to heavy lifting protocols just like I wouldn't necessarily assume the same applicability of a protocol based on dancing around with neoprene 5-lb dumbbells.
                      The Champagne of Beards

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                        Here's what I recall about the study: they took older women and had them work out with little dumbbells for a couple of months. So it was marginal.
                        I think we should design a study that compares the "afterburn" of these ladies training for and learning to do squats with a large percentage of their bodyweight and compare it to another group doing this silly light dumbbell protocol. I am willing to bet the results would vary in a significant (statistically and otherwise) way.

                        Now who knows where we can get a couple hundred thousand dollars to fund the thing?
                        The Champagne of Beards

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          Do you think it has the same hormonal effects as squatting a 150-lb sandbag? I sure wouldn't apply a study done with leg extensions to heavy lifting protocols just like I wouldn't necessarily assume the same applicability of a protocol based on dancing around with neoprene 5-lb dumbbells.
                          The short lasted testosterone spike you get from exercises such as squats and deads will not take you anywhere unfortunately, that's bro-science that has been debunked. Squatting will in general build more muscle than a leg extension but that doesen't mean that leg extension is useless as a strength builder - just ask Tom Platz and Mike Mentzer - oh I almost forgot, the last guy will not be able to answer anymore...
                          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                          - Schopenhauer

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            The short lasted testosterone spike you get from exercises such as squats and deads will not take you anywhere unfortunately, that's bro-science that has been debunked. Squatting will in general build more muscle than a leg extension but that doesen't mean that leg extension is useless as a strength builder - just ask Tom Platz and Mike Mentzer - oh I almost forgot, the last guy will not be able to answer anymore...
                            I'm really not interested in having the debate with you again where you construct and hang strawman after strawman. Where did I ever say the word "testosterone" in any previous post? Go ahead and put me back on ignore if that will stop you from trolling me.
                            The Champagne of Beards

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                              I'm really not interested in having the debate with you again where you construct and hang strawman after strawman. Where did I ever say the word "testosterone" in any previous post? Go ahead and put me back on ignore if that will stop you from trolling me.
                              Fair enough, no problems, adios to you then...
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                One more thing that I found helpful: There's a guy on the Starting Strength Forum named Jordan Feigenbaum. He's really a lot smarter about nutrition than most meathead types including Rippetoe himself. And he's a lot smarter about women and weight lifting than most people are, including the knuckleheads arguing stupid stuff here. I think he really understands that the same stuff that works for men doesn't work the same way for women.

                                Anyway, this is his forum.
                                Nutrition

                                And he did a reddit AMA recently that was pretty interesting.
                                Jordan Feigenbaum: AMA on Starting Strength, Nutrition, Etc. : Fitness

                                If you scroll way down he has some useful stuff about how women's bodies work a little differently. Here's the quote:
                                I'd keep doing the negatives, you'll get one very soon. Then do singles at the end of the workouts. Eventually you'll be busting out multiple reps. Females, due to both the acute and chronic effects of decreased testosterone as compared to men, do not get as robust a response from a set of 5 reps. Moreover, they cannot recruit the motor units in the same fashion a man can to perform a true 1 rep max. This allows women to do sets of 3 or 5 much closer to their "1 rep max" than a man can, because women cannot produce a true 1RM. Because woman can do this, they tend to respond better to higher intensity training, i.e. heavier weights (sets of 3's) with approximately the same volume as men (15 total reps) OR more volume (8 sets of 3 reps) at the same intensity they'd do for 3 sets of 5 reps. Inn talking to multiple other coaches, we've all had the same experience, i.e. women need more "something" to progress. Usually this results in training with heavier weights and lower reps, vs. just turning you into a volume junkie since your sex's CNS tends to respond better to increased loading vs. just increasing the volume.
                                I have found this to be true for me as well. I need more "something" to progress. It's not always clear what it is. More volume? Yeah, I think so because I have never felt like the strength "sticks" without more volume. Sets of 3? Yeah, that worked for a while but so has lots of volume at lower weights. I can do sets of 5 or 10 on what I could only do on sets of 3 before, but hell if I can automatically lift heavier even if I can do more reps. So maybe I need both more weight and more volume. More "something". I'm always looking for it.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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