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Even More Steak and Eggs: Plus Plants vs. Animals!

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  • Wow ajm thats a great refeed, I've never really done a planned refeed. I will have to change that and see if that helps me stay on track the rest of the time. Thanks for the insights and motivation.
    Thanks little vase, just the first week allthough I've been working at koto/primal for a while now.

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    • Originally posted by little vase View Post
      Wow. Those burritos sounds ridiculously delicious. I too try to make my food model for me but it almost always seems to want to get in my belly faster than I can whip out my camera.

      I'm making puttanesca sauce on my refeed on Friday - tomatoes, capers, olives, garlic, etc. Over spaghetti squash. With freshly grated romano cheese on top. With a glass of wine. And also making fish chowder with the fish my husband caught - bluefish and striped bass, direct from the beach on Long Beach Island in NJ, with potatoes, clams, fresh cream, butter and bacon. Mmmm.

      No, I'm not planning it ahead or anything, why do you think that?
      Mmmm. Y'know substituting squash for pasta is one of those rare primal/paleo swaps that actually ends up better in the end. Done properly, the squash has more texture and more flavor than pasta. I guess it loses out in the convenience and price departments, but I think it's worth it.

      Also, making chowder from fish you caught is just fantastic. Everyone should do their best to live off the land in some way. Now I want chowder, so thanks for that
      I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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      • Great refeed. Actually it matches the 70s refeeds that were legendary. Refeeds were treated like a contest to see how much people could eat and oftern started on Saturday nights. Sunday was a rest day from working out, they just ate. Not much attention was paid to macros, ice cream, fruit pies, pizza, almost anything went, but come Monday morning they were very bloated but it was back to serious business and intense workouts. The bloat was all gone by Tuesday night and they had gained some muscle and fat burning was reved up.
        Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

        https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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        • I've decided to start tracking my weight daily and posting it here. All weights are taken in the morning, after toilet and before fluids. Here are some important time points:

          05/04 - Day 01: 175.4 lbs.
          05/11 - Day 08: 171.2 lbs. (first refeed: 4.2 lbs lost on S&E)
          05/12 - Day 09: 177.4 lbs. (first day after first refeed: +6.2 lbs)
          05/15 - Day 12: 170.2 lbs. (weight returns to pre-refeed levels)
          05/18 - Day 15: 169.0 lbs. (second refeed: 6.4 lbs lost on S&E)
          05/19 - Day 16: 174.2 lbs. (first day after second refeed: + 5.2 lbs)
          I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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          • Good morning, everyone. The scale says 172.2 this morning, so water weight is coming off as planned. I am beginning a new training regimen today - Wendler's 5/3/1. I couldn't be more excited. I have been using RPT programming with deadlift, bench press, and squat for about a year now and it has done great things for me. I started at about 13% body fat last June, bloated up to ~20% this past winter, and now I'm down to around 13-14% again. Hopefully S&E will get me all the way down to 11-12%. I will repeat the same 5/3/1 cycle (i.e. I will not increase my calculated 1RMs) and diet until I'm satisfactorily lean.

            For you dieters who aren't lean (10%/18%) yet aren't fat (20%/30%), I would recommend you read the Truth About Bulking. In particular, the lines that stood out to me for us S&E'rs:

            Bodybuilders from the 60s and 70s relied on steak, whole milk, and eggs when bulking up. They ate a ton of it, but it was still good, nutrient-dense food. Nowadays, bodybuilders focus on fast food, pizza, donuts, pastries, etc. when bulking up. So while in both cases the amount of food consumed is large, the quality of the food was much different.
            Mildly relevant, but still made me happy. I know we're not "bulking" but it's cool to imagine all those guys downing meat and eggs rather than pizzas and shakes. And most of all:

            It's most likely due to what I call the ''lean threshold.'' You see, there's a point (a certain body fat percentage) where you start to look lean (around 10% for most men). There's also a point where you start to look fat (around 18-20% for most men). Then in between you have a certain zone where you basically look the same; you aren't lean enough to look defined so you don't really have any muscle separation.

            At that point, even if you gain a few pounds of fat, you won't visually see the difference. This is compounded by the fact that you're seeing yourself every day, so you might not notice the small changes in appearance. Most men won't be able to see a visual difference in muscularity between 13 and 16%. But if you're 200 pounds, going from 13 to 16% body fat can mean a six pound gain in fat!
            Sorry about the lack of comparable body fat numbers for women - I didn't write the article, after all. But this is an excellent point. If you're in that awkward region between lean and chubby, then it's quite tough to accurately estimate your body fat %. As the author of that article points out, your muscles and your body look very different when you're dieting. Personally, I'm sick of having flat muscles and a mushy stomach. But let's apply the principles of his article to me. Prior to this diet, I was about 16% body fat (estimated using past DEXA scans, caliper measurements, and careful tracking of weight for years). So: day 1 of steak and eggs:

            175.4 pounds, 147.3 lbs LBM, 28.1 lbs fat = 16.0% body fat

            Now, I've estimated that I'm eating around 1,600 calories on S&E days, and at least 3,000 on my refeed days. So say I've eaten 25,200 calories in two weeks. My TDEE is ~2,400, meaning I've eaten at a 8,400 calorie deficit in two weeks. I'm comfortable assuming that ~95% of the weight lost is fat, so that's roughly 2.5 pounds of fat loss in two weeks. Ballpark yes, but let's just see. My current, semi-carbloaded weight is 172.2 pounds. That's a net loss of 3.2 pounds! Looks good to me. So what's my new estimated BF%?

            172.2 pounds, 147.2 lbs LBM, 25 lbs fat = 14.5% body fat!

            Now how does this relate to the article? Well, I like to imagine I'm seeing more definition in the mirror but honestly, it's all in my head. Yes, I look fantastic shirtless in the gym with its overhead lighting while I'm doing weighted chinups, dripping sweat. But honestly looking at myself in the mirror when I'm brushing my teeth before bed? I look the exact same. Sure, I might notice some really minor differences in how my muscles look or where my veins are. But all that vanishes the moment I have a cheeseburger and a beer. But I'm OK with this! I don't expect a major change in going from 16-13% body fat. The scale is going down, I'm getting strong.

            Those of us doing this diet are desperate to see improvements on a day-to-day basis. Whether we like to admit it or not, this diet requires lots of willpower, and we expect a proportionate return on our efforts. But it's unlikely that 2-3 weeks on even this extreme of a diet are likely to effect real change. The kind of change where you look just as good lounging shirtless on your couch as you do posing in front of the bedroom mirror with the lamp angled just perfectly. If you believe you're seeing these kinds of actual changes on S&E, awesome. Keep it up. But if you're not, that's ok too. The important thing is that you stick with your diet be patient.
            Last edited by ajm422; 05-20-2013, 07:01 AM.
            I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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            • ajm that was a great post! Thanks for taking the time to write it. Brings the 4 week time period into perspective.
              Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

              https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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              • Great post, ajm! I haven't started my S&E trial yet, but I've been keeping updated with the main thread as well as yours. I'll probably start in the next couple of weeks. I've been following leangains for almost a year now and my training regimen is very comparable to what you've previously posted. You're post was very inspiring and it's great information. I'll be keeping an eye out for your Wendler 5/3/1 experiences as I've been eyeing that protocol too. By the way, count me in as a blog reader if you ever decide to start one!

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                • ^ Everything he said.

                  How's your wife doing, ajm? Is she killing lots of plants?

                  I'm so glad you stuck with this. I thought for a few days that you might be the first s&e casualty.

                  I also can't wait to do it again! I want to become more familiar with the kamado egg grill I just got so I can smoke everything. I want to do it again in July or August. I'm experimenting with smoked eggs today. You smoke them right in the shell. Can't wait to try some.
                  be the hair that knots with my hair
                  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  primal since oct. 1, 2012

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                  • Originally posted by little vase View Post
                    ^ Everything he said.

                    How's your wife doing, ajm? Is she killing lots of plants?
                    Haha. Her veganism was short-lived, I'm afraid. She made it through six days of lettuce and beans and decided to just stop. She didn't miss meat as much as she missed eggs and dairy. In my opinion she's just bad at being a vegan - too little variety and too little protein. If she planned more and got a vegan cookbook or something I'm sure she could keep with it. But that would involve being a vegan which we both agree is lame.

                    I'm so glad you stuck with this. I thought for a few days that you might be the first s&e casualty.
                    Doing weird diets is kind of my hobby and four days of diarrhea isn't so bad. Actually I once tried a meatatarian diet to thumb my nose at an infuriating vegetarian coworker. I ate exclusively meat and meat products and a small amount of dairy. I had bacon-wrapped sausages, "sandwiches" of two steaks with a salmon fillet in between, thin slices of steak rolled up with cheese, and eggs cooked in little ground beef saucers. Everything was cooked in bacon or duck fat. The only other items I allowed myself were salt, pepper, coffee and herbs. I would bring these monstrosities into work and gleefully tear into them right in her pompous little face. This may seem petty and childish to you, but she is one of those shame-vegetarians who tries to lay things like global hunger, clear cutting, and habitat destruction at the feet of non-vegetarians. That, and she was convinced I was some sort of moribund heart disease enthusiast. Trust me when I say, she had it coming.

                    Turns out the joke was on me. I never admitted it to her, but that was god-friggin awful. I had all the diarrhea of S&E with none of the energy. Not sure what made the difference but I really paid for my little stint. The look on her face when I told her what I was doing though? Once in a lifetime. She started avoiding me at lunch eventually and I stopped because I was so miserable, but her expressions made the whole thing worth it.
                    Last edited by ajm422; 05-20-2013, 09:53 AM.
                    I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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                    • Hmm, I'd be curious to know what played a part in the difference in energy, too.

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                      • Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
                        Haha.

                        Doing weird diets is kind of my hobby and four days of diarrhea isn't so bad. Actually I once tried a meatatarian diet to thumb my nose at an infuriating vegetarian coworker. I ate exclusively meat and meat products and a small amount of dairy. I had bacon-wrapped sausages, "sandwiches" of two steaks with a salmon fillet in between, thin slices of steak rolled up with cheese, and eggs cooked in little ground beef saucers. Everything was cooked in bacon or duck fat. The only other items I allowed myself were salt, pepper, coffee and herbs. I would bring these monstrosities into work and gleefully tear into them right in her pompous little face. This may seem petty and childish to you, but she is one of those shame-vegetarians who tries to lay things like global hunger, clear cutting, and habitat destruction at the feet of non-vegetarians. That, and she was convinced I was some sort of moribund heart disease enthusiast. Trust me when I say, she had it coming.
                        sounds like a cool WOE!!

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                        • The scale says 171.0 this morning - should be on track for an all-time low tomorrow morning. Today is Tuesday and I don't eat on Tuesdays. Next meal is at 7:00 PM on Wednesday. I started my new fitness regimen yesterday, which was, in the words of Theodore Roosevelt, dee-lightful. In addition to my 5/3/1 plan, I've incorporated Starting Stretching and Molding Mobility into my daily routine. I intend on focusing on mobility and dynamic stretching for the rest of my days. I know it's rather crass to say, but I just cannot stand yoga. I really just don't care for any aspect of any of it. But I'll do these routines (the sum of which is basically yoga) and hopefully reap all the increased range of motion and injury prevention they offer. Anybody else do useful mobility routines?

                          Steak and Eggs is still great. I feel lean, the weight is coming off, and my body is perfectly acclimated to the diet. Lots of energy, healthy bowel function. I have no way of attributing this to Steak and Eggs, but I also have no acne and no allergies. It's hard to say whether this is normal not. Perhaps I'm just focusing more on my body and my appearance and health on this diet. I usually have a clear complexion with maybe a blemish or two at any given time, but my skin has been clear for a few weeks. And I usually have nasty seasonal allergies this time of year but I've been totally clear. I think I can definitively say that Steak and Eggs does not cause acne or allergies in myself, though. So that's something.
                          I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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                          • I'm 169.4 this morning - not quite an all-time low but nearly there. Short update this morning. Steak and EGGS.
                            I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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                            • Well it's day 19 and my psyche is finally showing some wear and tear. I worked from home this morning and ended up unable to resist the call of walnuts and dark chocolate. After a few handfuls, I decided to try and eat a real meal to quell my hunger - three scrambled eggs with cheese and some butter. Now all the snack food is out of the house and the only things left in the fridge are lean meats, eggs, steak, and vegetables. Hopefully I won't have any more slips.

                              The real troubling thing is my mind is beginning to wander. I'm starting to worry if I'm damaging metabolism, or losing lean tissue, or not losing fat as fast as I could be. I spent some time this morning thinking about dropping the whole thing. I think I'm back now, but I can say I won't be carrying this past four weeks. I have day 28 circled on the calendar and I can say the experiment will be over then. I'm eager to get back to leangains and lose the last couple of pounds slowly while also working on my conditioning and building strength. But really I just want carbs again. I want potatoes and beets and bread and beer. This is a cool experiment and it has its ups and downs. Today is a down day. But I'll keep on until the end.

                              I'm going to do penance for my weakness: hill sprints after my training session this evening. That'll learn me.
                              Last edited by ajm422; 05-22-2013, 11:49 AM.
                              I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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                              • How do you think you may be damaging your metabolism?

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