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  • #61
    The issue is that it is circular. If someone hasn't been diagnosed with celiac, they're told that they should not give up gluten. But the reason they have not been diagnosed may be that their doctor may be behind the times or incompetent, or that they are asymptomatic, or that the tests give high numbers of false negatives, or they are non-celiac gluten intolerant.

    I'm not saying there is an easy solution to a complex problem, just that hearing over and over again that you shouldn't give up gluten unless you know you are celiac is something people often hear that shortens lives.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
      The issue is that it is circular. If someone hasn't been diagnosed with celiac, they're told that they should not give up gluten. But the reason they have not been diagnosed may be that their doctor may be behind the times or incompetent, or that they are asymptomatic, or that the tests give high numbers of false negatives, or they are non-celiac gluten intolerant.

      I'm not saying there is an easy solution to a complex problem, just that hearing over and over again that you shouldn't give up gluten unless you know you are celiac is something people often hear that shortens lives.
      ...And greatly reduces the quality of life.

      Yep.
      We exist.
      Auto-immune diseases.
      “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
      ~Friedrich Nietzsche
      And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by KT79 View Post
        Going gluten free only works for weight-loss if you eat mostly whole foods and avoid the processed gluten free substitute products. If anything, processed gluten free food is less healthy and nutritious and more calorie-dense than the product it's trying to replace. Plus, most of it is expensive and doesn't taste that good.

        If your girlfriend is really missing beer, you should look for Green's - it's a Belgian beer that's both vegan and gluten free, and it comes in 3-flavors - it's pretty tasty, considering it's gluten free. Whole Foods sometimes carries it.
        Good point KT79, I should have mentioned this important fact in my earlier post.
        Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

        https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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        • #64
          Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
          Yesterday morning I was lethargic, groggy, and miserable on my bike ride in. Well, I haven't left for work yet but I feel amazing! My weight is down from 170.8 to 170.2, my body isn't sore, and I feel hale and strong. I doubt it made much of a difference, but I took a few big bites of sauerkraut last night with my dinner. I still had diarrhea last night, but at this point it doesn't really bother me so much. Stool frequency is up I must admit, but it's not really so bad. And my muscles look AMAZING.
          Great to hear your are feeling better, congrats on the weight loss! Other than the bowel challenges you appear to have had some amazing results. Its interesting how some people have diarrhea and others are constipated. Personally I went from going once a day to once every two days. Really value you input thanks for participating.
          Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

          https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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          • #65
            Originally posted by canuck416 View Post
            Great to hear your are feeling better, congrats on the weight loss! Other than the bowel challenges you appear to have had some amazing results. Its interesting how some people have diarrhea and others are constipated. Personally I went from going once a day to once every two days. Really value you input thanks for participating.
            It's been a blast! The (second) most amazing thing so far is my persistent enthusiasm for steak and eggs. I really do have yet to tire of it. Prior to the diet I didn't eat very much red meat, so maybe that's why. But today it was as if a flip was switched. Rather than waking up with cramps and the immediate need to go sit on the john, I woke up refreshed. My bike into work was even easier than normal somehow - it felt like what I imagine blood doping feels like. I haven't even gone #2 yet today!

            I decided to move my carb day from tomorrow to today so that I can go to Macaroni Grill and get pasta and bread. Tomorrow I'm taking my mom out to lunch and I'll just do the best I can. Or have a 1.5 day carb up. I dunno, we'll see.

            Question for you: I normally fast for 48 hours between Monday night and Wednesday night. What's your gut reaction to me doing that in conjunction with steak and eggs? I didn't last time because I was new to the diet and didn't want to further freak my body out. But I think I might try it next week. I can't see how it would be a big deal, as I'm isoenergetic with my usual cutting diet. Think Imma go for it.
            I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
              Question for you: I normally fast for 48 hours between Monday night and Wednesday night. What's your gut reaction to me doing that in conjunction with steak and eggs? I didn't last time because I was new to the diet and didn't want to further freak my body out. But I think I might try it next week. I can't see how it would be a big deal, as I'm isoenergetic with my usual cutting diet. Think Imma go for it.
              Sure go for it and see how you feel. Personally the naturally scheduled IF 16/8 with the two meals works best for me but it will be interesting to see how your body reacts. The combination of the 48 hour fast and the IF should give you a large calorie deficit for the week, but keep in mind that it will speed the leptin decrease, slow down your fat cell release process and result in some fatigue by Thursday. You may have to go to a 2 day carb refeed on the following weekend.
              Last edited by canuck416; 05-10-2013, 11:10 AM.
              Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

              https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by canuck416 View Post
                The combination of the 48 hour fast and the IF should give you a large calorie deficit for the week and may speed the leptin decrease resulting in some fatigue by Thursday.
                I hope my results mirror those of this study: Ramadan fastings effect on plasma leptin, adiponectin concentrations, and body composition in trained young men. This looked at the aggregate effects of fasting over the course of a month, but those subjects (who were young and lean, i.e. applies to me) did not experience a net reduction in leptin.

                Also interesting: one of the effects of chronically low leptin (for example: in lean individuals with little body fat) is decreased metabolic rate thanks to a decrease in catecholamines. Catacholamines (autonomic stimulants) are mediated by leptin (among other things), so it makes sense that low serum leptin is associated with a lower metabolism through decreased catecholamine expression. (It's tough to tease out causation vs. correlation, but this sounds reasonable to me.) However, Short-term fasting-induced autonomic activation and changes in catecholamine levels are not mediated by changes in leptin levels in healthy humans. provides interesting insight into the effects of leptin on catecholamines during a 72 hour fast. In this case, young (22.4 ± 3.3 years) lean (BMI 21.5 ± 2.0 kg/m2) women fasted for 72 hours. And though their circulating leptin levels fell by 80%, their heart rates and catecholamines (in this case norepinephrine and dopamine) increased after 72 hours. This is wild: after 72 hours of fasting, these women had an increased metabolism, even in the face of seriously reduced leptin and no food for three days! The authors say in the discussion that they expect no difference in men - women have higher baseline levels of leptin but during a fast both genders experience proportionately similar drops in leptin. Finally, ending the fast results in higher baseline leptin levels than before the fast! Basically, fasting is freaking awesome.

                You may have to go to a 2 day carb refeed on the following weekend.
                Aaaand you just made up my mind
                Last edited by ajm422; 05-10-2013, 11:38 AM.
                I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
                  I hope my results mirror those of this study: Ramadan fastings effect on plasma leptin, adiponectin concentrations, and body composition in trained young men. This looked at the aggregate effects of fasting over the course of a month, but those subjects (who were young and lean, i.e. applies to me) did not experience a net reduction in leptin.

                  Also interesting: one of the effects of chronically low leptin (for example: in lean individuals with little body fat) is decreased metabolic rate thanks to a decrease in catecholamines. Catacholamines (autonomic stimulants) are mediated by leptin (among other things), so it makes sense that low serum leptin is associated with a lower metabolism through decreased catecholamine expression. (It's tough to tease out causation vs. correlation, but this sounds reasonable to me.) However, Short-term fasting-induced autonomic activation and changes in catecholamine levels are not mediated by changes in leptin levels in healthy humans. provides interesting insight into the effects of leptin on catecholamines during a 72 hour fast. In this case, young (22.4 ± 3.3 years) lean (BMI 21.5 ± 2.0 kg/m2) women fasted for 72 hours. And though their circulating leptin levels fell by 80%, their heart rates and catecholamines (in this case norepinephrine and dopamine) increased after 72 hours. This is wild: after 72 hours of fasting, these women had an increased metabolism, even in the face of seriously reduced leptin and no food for three days! The authors say in the discussion that they expect no difference in men - women have higher baseline levels of leptin but during a fast both genders experience proportionately similar drops in leptin. Finally, ending the fast results in higher baseline leptin levels than before the fast! Basically, fasting is freaking awesome.



                  Aaaand you just made up my mind
                  Very interesting indeed. I wonder if the shorter IF has the same impact on leptin levels? I know it induces higher HGH and testosterone levels.
                  Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

                  https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                    The issue is that it is circular. If someone hasn't been diagnosed with celiac, they're told that they should not give up gluten. But the reason they have not been diagnosed may be that their doctor may be behind the times or incompetent, or that they are asymptomatic, or that the tests give high numbers of false negatives, or they are non-celiac gluten intolerant.

                    I'm not saying there is an easy solution to a complex problem, just that hearing over and over again that you shouldn't give up gluten unless you know you are celiac is something people often hear that shortens lives.
                    Ok, I'll grant you that - but undiagnosed Celiac patients and patients with asymptomatic gluten intolerance are in the minority here. Only one percent of Americans (300,000 people) have been diagnosed with the disease, so if we make a (massive) assumption that an additional 300,000 people have the disease and have not been diagnosed, then that's a 2% disease rate. I'm not sure that's worth a wholesale vilification of wheat. Saying things like, "wheat belly" and "this is you on cheese" are incendiary and, in my opinion, ineffective.

                    fat-web.jpg

                    What I want to see is moderation. The new FDA food plate makes me really happy. Yes, it says things like, "limit butter" and "avoid bacon" which will offend primal people. But in general it's really good advice for 98% of Americans. I mean, we primal people do avoid butter and bacon. That is, we avoid grain-fed, salted butter and bacon loaded with nitrites. We stick to CLA-rich, grass-fed, organic, unsalted butter and uncured bacon. Or we cut our own bacon. For the average fatso who's addicted to Land O' Lakes and Oscar Meyer microwave bacon, avoidance is excellent advice.

                    Harvard-Plate1.jpg.
                    Last edited by ajm422; 05-10-2013, 12:16 PM.
                    I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I recently read about a study done by a grade school girl as her science project. Having been diagnosed with celiac, she wanted to know how common it was. She went to the local clinic where they agreed to offer 133 free blood tests to upcoming patients who had not been tested. They expected to find one positive. They found 4, and all of them were asymptomatic.

                      I think you have a problem with digestion of fat. Perhaps you can handle certain types better than others. Maybe you need to limit your overall fat intake.

                      Most Americans eat hardly any butter. They are not addicted to it. The average Canadian consumption of butter is 7ml per day. The average American eats bacon only 18 times a year.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I've never been tested for Celiac or any gluten intolerance. Upon giving up wheat, I lost 20lbs in the first year after being stuck for the prior year at the same weight. Not too much changed about my diet, although I likely did start eating more protein. But I replaced the wheat products with rice and potatoes for the most part.

                        When I eat wheat products now, I get an almost instant headache and gain 5lbs that doesn't go away for 2-3 days. My son (nearly 3yo) hasn't had any testing but gets eczema whenever he has more than a few bites of a wheat product.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          The issue is that it is circular. If someone hasn't been diagnosed with celiac, they're told that they should not give up gluten. But the reason they have not been diagnosed may be that their doctor may be behind the times or incompetent, or that they are asymptomatic, or that the tests give high numbers of false negatives, or they are non-celiac gluten intolerant.
                          Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                          I recently read about a study done by a grade school girl as her science project. Having been diagnosed with celiac, she wanted to know how common it was. She went to the local clinic where they agreed to offer 133 free blood tests to upcoming patients who had not been tested. They expected to find one positive. They found 4, and all of them were asymptomatic.
                          I have to ask - what exactly do you mean by asymptomatic Celiac? The blood test for Celiac disease tests for antibodies against gliadin, and though it can be indicative of Celiac disease, a positive test for gliadin abs in the absence of symptoms is certainly not a positive test for Celiac disease. The only surefire test for Celiac is a biopsy of jejunum tissue. If you, eKatherine, went into the doctor and got screened for every single known histological disease marker, you would have an abnormally high value of something. The general population varies very widely from person to person, and a perfectly healthy person might have high values for several items which, in the presence of symptoms, would be a disease indicator.

                          So 4 of 133 people had abnormally high gliadin abs and no symptoms? That sounds pretty reasonable. The PSA screen for prostate cancer is discouraged for younger, asymptomatic men for this reason. Lots of men had positive PSA tests and had to undergo invasive and expensive tests and treatments for no reason. A gliadin ab blood test should be among the tools used to diagnose patients of Celiac disease, but it is certainly not true that anyone who doesn't have Celiac symptoms should get tested and be forced to undergo a massive lifestyle change for no reason. No one should give up precious, precious beer if they don't have to.

                          I think you have a problem with digestion of fat. Perhaps you can handle certain types better than others. Maybe you need to limit your overall fat intake.
                          So far I doubt it. I underwent a massive, massive diet change to a very extreme diet. We'll see how it goes. I haven't had diarrhea today!
                          Last edited by ajm422; 05-10-2013, 03:21 PM.
                          I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
                            I have to ask - what exactly do you mean by asymptomatic Celiac? The blood test for Celiac disease tests for antibodies against gliadin, and though it can be indicative of Celiac disease, a positive test for gliadin abs in the absence of symptoms is certainly not a positive test for Celiac disease. The only surefire test for Celiac is a biopsy of jejunum tissue. If you, eKatherine, went into the doctor and got screened for every single known histological disease marker, you would have an abnormally high value of something. The general population varies very widely from person to person, and a perfectly healthy person might have high values for several items which, in the presence of symptoms, would be a disease indicator.
                            Some doctors use the blood tests to diagnose celiac. Others insist on a biopsy, which many people cannot afford, not to mention that not everyone who has not been eating gluten recently is going to be willing to sacrifice their health for 3-6 months to get a diagnosis. Would you eat yourself sick to get a positive diagnosis of diabetes or heart disease?

                            There are still doctors who will refuse to give a diagnosis to someone who hasn't had the biopsy and tell them to eat gluten, as though somehow not being able to afford the test is somehow evidence that they should not give up gluten. Puhlease.

                            The tests have a very high false negatives and hardly any false positives. A positive result on any of them is taken as evidence of gluten intolerance and possibly celiac.

                            So 4 of 133 people had abnormally high gliadin abs and no symptoms? That sounds pretty reasonable. The PSA screen for prostate cancer is discouraged for younger, asymptomatic men for this reason. Lots of men had positive PSA tests and had to undergo invasive and expensive tests and treatments for no reason. A gliadin ab blood test should be among the tools used to diagnose patients of Celiac disease, but it is certainly not true that anyone who doesn't have Celiac symptoms should get tested and be forced to undergo a massive lifestyle change for no reason. No one should give up precious, precious beer if they don't have to.
                            The expected number was 1. They found 4. It's possible that this is a fluke. You could calculate the probability on that.

                            The Italian government would probably disagree with you that the chance that 4% of the population has active celiac is something that should be ignored and these people have nothing to lose by eating wheat. They do test every schoolchild for celiac.

                            Untreated celiac can lead to death. Is it worth dying over beer?

                            This is a public health issue of unknown dimensions.

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                            • #74
                              Now that's how you carb binge. No real semblance of dieting, or even restraint. It was a non-primal carb and alcohol contest, and it was fierce. We took both of our mothers out to two different Mother's Day meals on Friday and Saturday. We drank tons of good beer, ate baskets of bread and seafood, and reveled in all the salty glory. We napped during the day, woke up and drank. It was summer, come early and hard.

                              I was 170.0 on Friday morning, and it was with great trepidation that I stepped onto the scale this morning. But my fears were unfounded - only 176.4. I've had much greater binge spikes in the past - this will all be gone by Wednesday. In addition, I somehow managed to parlay all those carbs into what I hope was a massively anabolic weekend. I had a decent squats session on Friday before a bread and pizza laden dinner at Macaroni Grill. Then on Saturday, after a seafood brunch (beer, bread, steamed seafood, ice cream, beer, Bloody Mary's, and beer) I slept for 2 hours and somehow managed to go downstairs and have a ruthless, half-drunken 60 minute weightlifting outburst. I did more squats - 'cause who needs rest days - then I did weighted dips and calf raises. But by then I was dehydrated, dripping, and half-mad with carb fever and decided to do weighted chins until my arms failed. When they failed I stripped the weight belt off and did chins until my arms failed again. Finally I did negatives until my arms were swollen and lifeless. Then I went back upstairs and napped more before a comically huge steak and eggs dinner. Oh, and more beer.

                              I expected Sunday to be full of aches and fatigue, but I woke up feeling good and managed to mow the lawn, weed, and mulch the gardens. After all the resting and digesting it felt good to sweat and stick my hands in the dirt. I must admit I'm glad to be back on steak and eggs. The gf and I agreed next weekend there will be no such debauchery. We have a July 1st date with the beach and we will be keeping it. She broke with her veganism after only six and a half days. Such is a miserable lifestyle. You know vegan food is lacking because they offer vegan mayonnaise and vegan cheese and vegan ham and turkey. No one tries to pass sausage in the guise of vegetables because animals taste better than plants. You can keep your tofurkeys and your arrowroot cheese. I'll take a dead, bleeding bird and some ground up pig, thank you very much.

                              So she's embarking on her own, less extreme diet of meat and greens. I'm sticking with steak and eggs, and probably not just 4 weeks. After one week I can say I still truly adore this diet and plan on sticking to it until I'm cleaning dryer lint from between my abs. I don't see why I can't stick with it all the way through June until July and beyond. Even prior to carb day my bowels righted themselves and I feel strong and sharp. I will eat my steak and eggs today and, to offset the weekend's calorie load, fast until Wednesday evening. That should put my house back in order. Thanks all for bearing with me through the Great Diarrhea Week. I'm back on my game and my posts should be less pouty and more primal. I plan on upping the volume for the duration. Meat, hunger, iron and sweat. Time to get to work.
                              Last edited by ajm422; 05-13-2013, 09:47 AM.
                              I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
                                Now that's how you carb binge. No real semblance of dieting, or even restraint. It was a non-primal carb and alcohol contest, and it was fierce. We took both of our mothers out to two different Mother's Day meals on Friday and Saturday. We drank tons of good beer, ate baskets of bread and seafood, and reveled in all the salty glory. We napped during the day, woke up and drank. It was summer, come early and hard.

                                I was 170.0 on Friday morning, and it was with great trepidation that I stepped onto the scale this morning. But my fears were unfounded - only 176.4. I've had much greater binge spikes in the past - this will all be gone by Wednesday. In addition, I somehow managed to parlay all those carbs into what I hope was a massively anabolic weekend. I had a decent squats session on Friday before a bread and pizza laden dinner at Macaroni Grill. Then on Saturday, after a seafood brunch (beer, bread, steamed seafood, ice cream, beer, Bloody Mary's, and beer) I slept for 2 hours and somehow managed to go downstairs and have a ruthless, half-drunken 60 minute weightlifting outburst. I did more squats - 'cause who needs rest days - then I did weighted dips and calf raises. But by then I was dehydrated, dripping, and half-mad with carb fever and decided to do weighted chins until my arms failed. When they failed I stripped the weight belt off and did chins until my arms failed again. Finally I did negatives until my arms were swollen and lifeless. Then I went back upstairs and napped more before a comically huge steak and eggs dinner. Oh, and more beer.

                                I expected Sunday to be full of aches and fatigue, but I woke up feeling good and managed to mow the lawn, weed, and mulch the gardens. Feel pretty good. All in all, I'm happy to be back on steak and eggs. The gf and I agreed next weekend there will be no such debauchery. We have a July 1st date with the beach and we will be keeping it. She broke with her veganism after only six and a half days. Such is a miserable lifestyle. You know vegan food is lacking because they offer vegan mayonnaise and vegan cheese and vegan ham and turkey. No one offers sausages in the shape of vegetables because animals taste better than plants.

                                So she's embarking on her own, less extreme diet of meat and greens. I'm sticking with steak and eggs, and probably not just 4 weeks. After one week I can say I still truly adore this diet and plan on sticking to it until I'm cleaning dryer lint from between my abs. I don't see why I can't stick with it all the way through June until July and beyond. Even prior to carb day my bowels righted themselves and I feel great in general. I will eat my steak and eggs today and, to offset the weekend's calorie load, fast until Wednesday evening. That should put my house back in order. Thanks all for bearing with me through the Great Diarrhea Week. I'm back on my game and my posts should be less pouty and more primal. I plan on upping the volume for the duration. Meat, hunger, iron and sweat. Time to get to work.
                                As usual, one of the most entertaining posts on the forum! Great to have you back from your weekend of debauchery, have a great week!
                                Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

                                https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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