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Even More Steak and Eggs: Plus Plants vs. Animals!

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  • #31
    I am totally fat-adapted. I could switch between eating a zero carb high fat diet and a more moderate one with no issues. I feel for you.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
      just flat out lying
      I can only speak for my husband and myself but I can assure you that we are not
      be the hair that knots with my hair
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      primal since oct. 1, 2012

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      • #33
        Originally posted by little vase View Post
        I can only speak for my husband and myself but I can assure you that we are not
        Haha. That thought came to me in a weak moment (on the toilet at 3 AM). "How can no one else be dealing with this!?" I trust that everyone's being truthful.
        I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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        • #34
          I've been lurking on the steak & eggs thread & just wanted to pop in to mention that you may need to supplement Magensium, as well as the other electrolytes/salt that you are already doing.

          When I went vlc, I had similar experiences (not diarrhea, though!). Felt like a second bout of carb flu.
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          • #35
            Have you guys read this? I love that it's hosted on bible life, by the way.

            Stefansson 1 - Eskimos Prove An All Meat Diet Provides Excellent Health.

            I would jump on this steak and eggs thing, but I fucking hate eating the same stupid shit all the time. I can do all carnivorous fairly easily with diversity in proteins and preparation, etc. I also would most definitely have a weekend (or whenever the FUCK I wanted) carb fest with lots of potatoes. My only problem is I prefer starches with lots of fat.
            I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ajm422 View Post

              It has been taxing though. I don't know if all you guys in the main thread are just more fat adapted, tougher, or just flat out lying (I sincerely doubt that) but 6 days on this diet is really starting to jar me. My chronic diarrhea has been well documented so I won't go into it. But this morning on my bike ride into work (all uphill, though I normally crank with ease) felt like pedaling through cream cheese frosting. No, not sand. Cream cheese frosting. Or maybe peanut butter. Yeah - like pedaling through peanut butter. My legs are sore and weak - climbing up the stairs was a challenge. I feel generally depleted physically even as my mind is fine. Well, the mind is mostly fine. I think clearly and work is going alright. But the cravings. My coworker was cruel this morning. He bought a banana nut muffin the size of a softball. I normally don't like muffins (these kind are particularly awful - the first listed ingredient is sugar ). But I stared long enough that he asked me what was up. I've planned Saturday's carb up down to the last detail. I realize I can't go overboard and if I don't plan, I'll go overboard. I'll go into the water and straight to the bottom of the sea. For about five minutes this morning I sat in my chair with my eyes closed and fantasized about eating a bowl of oatmeal. I could feel the textures and the heat in my mouth. It was splendid. And then waking from my fantasy was a rude affront. My head is in a weird place right now. It's half disturbing and half amusing.
              Dude. I know after day three you were all "just crashed this (lift) despite no carbs. So much for needing carbs to workout LAWLS!" and now reality is coming back around on you. Get your glucose more often than just once a week and you won't feel like a shit-ass.

              The only reason to ever just do a carnivorous style diet (OUTSIDE of therapeutical reasons... I know some of you out there literally NEED to eat VLC, not talking to you right now) is if you actually, truly dislike starches. If you can't stand the thought of eating them, then becoming fat adapted is the way to go. If you, on the other hand, enjoy the taste of potatoes, fruits, most vegetables, etc, then suffering through fat adaption is totally stupid.

              Another reason would be if you can't exercise in the manner you're used to (hospitalization, etc) and don't want to put on too much weight, so you'd naturally want to eat more protein to maintain muscle mass. This kind of falls into the therapeutic or strategic VLC approach.

              I've been VLC before, it's pretty cool for a few days, then what you described happens and that's when a carb refeed is in order.

              Have you read Mat Lalonde's piece on it? CrossFit On a Low Carb Paleo Diet: Mat Lalonde Reporting read it carefully. Also keep in mind that while the article wasn't updated (unfortunately) Mat Lalonde said on Robb Wolf's podcast that he crashed HARD and had to eat two gallons of ICE CREAM in order to get his sugars back up after a workout - and never went this low on carbs while training again.

              Just my two cents, etc. Not looking to really argue about this, because I don't care about your opinions. Because I'm right.

              Quick edit: Please don't mistake this post as me telling any of you what to do. I don't care what anybody here is doing. I think experimentation is the best way to learn and I wish you all the best. Kumbaya.
              Last edited by iniQuity; 05-09-2013, 08:28 AM.
              I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                Dude. I know after day three you were all "just crashed this (lift) despite no carbs. So much for needing carbs to workout LAWLS!" and now reality is coming back around on you. Get your glucose more often than just once a week and you won't feel like a shit-ass.
                Strength training sessions are just fine. Last night I increased my weight AND reps on my top work set of bench press. This was an increase over last week, when I was eating conventionally. It was the bike ride that was rough. And that likely has more to do with being dehydrated than anything. I don't care about my morning bike ride - that's not a part of my fat loss plan. That's a cheap way to get to work and spend some time outside, breathing exhaust fumes and being cursed at. As long as fat loss is happening, I'll go ahead and suffer through a slow bike ride.

                The only reason to ever just do a carnivorous style diet (OUTSIDE of therapeutical reasons... I know some of you out there literally NEED to eat VLC, not talking to you right now) is if you actually, truly dislike starches. If you can't stand the thought of eating them, then becoming fat adapted is the way to go. If you, on the other hand, enjoy the taste of potatoes, fruits, most vegetables, etc, then suffering through fat adaption is totally stupid.

                Another reason would be if you can't exercise in the manner you're used to (hospitalization, etc) and don't want to put on too much weight, so you'd naturally want to eat more protein to maintain muscle mass. This kind of falls into the therapeutic or strategic VLC approach.

                I've been VLC before, it's pretty cool for a few days, then what you described happens and that's when a carb refeed is in order.
                My "reason" is to try out the fat loss methods of Vince Gironda for four weeks. Fat loss, especially rapid fat loss, is always going to be miserable. I did Lyle McDonald's RFL PSMF once and lost a bunch of fat, but was cripplingly hungry and constipated for a month. Oh, and I gained all the fat back. This time, I'm not hungry, and I'm definitely not constipated. I'm not complaining about being weak and lethargic. I accept these are symptoms of being on a crash diet (which this is). I'm just chronicling my experience. My main point is: yes parts of this diet are hard on me. But the fat loss makes the suffering worth it.

                Have you read Mat Lalonde's piece on it? CrossFit On a Low Carb Paleo Diet: Mat Lalonde Reporting read it carefully. Also keep in mind that while the article wasn't updated (unfortunately) Mat Lalonde said on Robb Wolf's podcast that he crashed HARD and had to eat two gallons of ICE CREAM in order to get his sugars back up after a workout - and never went this low on carbs while training again.
                Not discounting the merits of this particular link, but Robb Wolf is a douche, I loathe all things CrossFit, and that's nice for Mat Lalonde. My circumstances and motivations are completely different. Though I could go for two gallons of ice cream.

                Just my two cents, etc. Not looking to really argue about this, because I don't care about your opinions. Because I'm right.
                I like you.
                I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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                • #38
                  If that's the case then play on, playa.

                  Question, what makes you think you won't gain when you go back to more conventional eating? Will you try to match calories after the experiment? My main reason for never going on crash diets is because I inevitably want to return to my normal way of eating, which is relatively low-ish carb with the essential massive carb intake followed by crashing followed by self loathing followed by masturbation and then easing back to normal.
                  I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                    If that's the case then play on, playa.

                    Question, what makes you think you won't gain when you go back to more conventional eating? Will you try to match calories after the experiment? My main reason for never going on crash diets is because I inevitably want to return to my normal way of eating, which is relatively low-ish carb with the essential massive carb intake followed by crashing followed by self loathing followed by masturbation and then easing back to normal.
                    I think the difference here is hunger. I'm having cravings for carby foods, but they're mental, not physical. I'm not actually hungry - I just want bread and waffles and fruit and oatmeal. After the PSMF, which again was effective, I had been starving for weeks and weeks. I suspect that the chronic hunger unfavorably altered my leptin profile. I lost roughly 10 pounds of fat in only 6 weeks. This was computed from an average of scale measurements and body fat calipers after a 7 day washout period to ensure I gained the water weight back. Leptin is produced by adipose tissue, so after all the fat loss, my hypothalamus was getting a whole lot less leptin than it was used to. It's possible my leptin receptors became more numerous/more sensitive but I'm not sure that happens as quickly as six weeks. Thus, after the diet I had (theoretically) much lower baseline leptin levels because the fat loss was not gradual and my leptin receptors weren't used to my new set point. Now remember that leptin is the "satiety hormone." Very low leptin + no leptin receptor adjustment = insanely high, chronic hunger. This is why fat loss is best done gradually: you need to give your hypothalamus a chance to adjust to your new, lower levels of body fat and understand that lower leptin levels (inevitable with fat loss) don't necessarily mean that you need to eat so much more.

                    Now, if it's true that I am losing all this fat, this same phenomenon might happen again. I don't know that it might not. But I do know that I'm strangely not hungry very often. Strange because I'm only consuming 1,600-1,800 calories a day and I'm quite active. This at least means that my ghrelin levels are roughly normal. I don't really know the biochemistry of this diet, but perhaps all the dietary fat has some sort of blunting effect on the leptin set-point cycle. Namely, low leptin not only causes hunger, but also a reduction in metabolism. Furthermore, leptin is a "master-hormone" of many other hormones such as neuropeptide-Y, T3/T4, and others (here's an excellent primer by Martin Berkhan). Perhaps the high levels of fat favorably alter other aspects of this signaling cascade in the face of low calories and low leptin. That article also points out that intermittent fasting, rather than standard calorie restriction, might have some benefits regarding leptin. I am IF'ing now, and I wasn't on the PSMF. Finally, though the PSMF encouraged carbohydrate refeeds every few days, I never really committed to them and I was afraid of putting on weight. I was weak, and I now am strong. Carbohydrate refeeds during a diet have positive effects on leptin and, hopefully, will nearly normalize my leptin levels during this diet.
                    I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
                      It has been taxing though. I don't know if all you guys in the main thread are just more fat adapted, tougher, or just flat out lying (I sincerely doubt that) but 6 days on this diet is really starting to jar me.
                      I thought that is what normally happens to people. It's hard, it cuts a lot of weight, it makes you miserable. Same thing happens when people do the chicken breast and broccoli diet for getting those striations to show. That's why people don't live on this diet, they use it for getting ripped really quickly for a competition or whatever.
                      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                        I thought that is what normally happens to people. It's hard, it cuts a lot of weight, it makes you miserable. Same thing happens when people do the chicken breast and broccoli diet for getting those striations to show. That's why people don't live on this diet, they use it for getting ripped really quickly for a competition or whatever.
                        I certainly didn't expect this diet to be easy. I expected it to be the least-shitty crash diet for losing gobs of body fat fast. And so far, I think that's true. I just find it passing odd that, as far as I know, not one person in the other thread has reported any digestive issues or lethargy. I guess it's possible I missed something, but it seems to be sunshine and daisies in there. It doesn't seem far fetched to me that some people are just not reporting such things, or that many are not observing complete adherence. Other than the handful of walnuts I had last night, I haven't had a SINGLE carbohydrate in six days. Not a mushroom, or a piece of broccoli, or anything except a micronibble of my gf's tofu. I dunno.

                        It's also likely that everyone who adopted this diet was already adapted to a high fat/high protein/moderate or low carb diet. I certainly wasn't. Maybe they really are just sailing through it. Not every diet is for every person. Like I said, I'm prepared to cope with the symptoms of this diet. It's just weird being the only one.
                        Last edited by ajm422; 05-09-2013, 10:19 AM.
                        I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ajm422 View Post
                          My "reason" is to try out the fat loss methods of Vince Gironda for four weeks. Fat loss, especially rapid fat loss, is always going to be miserable. I did Lyle McDonald's RFL PSMF once and lost a bunch of fat, but was cripplingly hungry and constipated for a month. Oh, and I gained all the fat back.
                          I tried that and couldn't even stick to it for a week without binging, and I'm not a binger. The lack of fat drove me nuts. If I'd known it was a fat-free diet, I'd never have bought the book.

                          And the thing is, he discusses how some people do well on a high fat diet, and then prescribes a fat-free one, because some people don't. Not much flexibility there.

                          This is not a diet in the sense of "way of eating". It's a crash diet, a weight loss diet. I'm not tired of steak yet. I feel great.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ajm422 View Post

                            It's also likely that everyone who adopted this diet was already adapted to a high fat/high protein/moderate or low carb diet. I certainly wasn't. Maybe they really are just sailing through it. Not every diet is for every person. Like I said, I'm prepared to cope with the symptoms of this diet. It's just weird being the only one.
                            I think this is an important point. I have been Paleo/Primal for over a year and definitely feel like I was fat adapted, so this diet has been quite easy for me, although I did add mushrooms and onions to my lunch steak for some additional flavor after the first week. Still my carb grams are under 20 per day which is quite low. If you are not fat adapted then you will not feel great on this diet for the first couple of weeks, after that it gets progressively easier. But as has been mentioned this is a one month trial to jump start some fat loss, everyone is different and each person will have a different experience. What's been surprising to me is the strength and muscle gains, this was totally unexpected.
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                            • #44
                              Yes, I too am fat adapted. That's definitely a key point. It's been "sunshine and daisies for me" so far. As I said in the other thread, I was definitely saving on toilet paper so far but that problem has resolved itself and everything's good. I'm sorry you're struggling. Maybe just be primal for a while and then try again?
                              be the hair that knots with my hair
                              - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                              primal since oct. 1, 2012

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by little vase View Post
                                Maybe just be primal for a while and then try again?
                                NEVAHHH!!!! Like I said, I'm dealing. The fat loss is fantastic and that's what this is for. Besides, I never really intend on being fat adapted. In normal times, I follow leangains which is high carb/low fat on training days and low carb/high fat on rest days. I'll never give up my potatoes, breads, beer, and oatmeal. Never.
                                I'm a weak man...If I give myself a few feet of leeway, I burst through all of my prohibitions.

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