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  • #16
    Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
    That's great that you're sleeping the night through! I remember you telling me that actually.

    That carb level sounds okay, but what was your level before? Overall calories are important too, as are the foods you eat last thing in the evening. Can you run us through a typical day of eating? What used you eat? What are your overall calories? And what were they before?

    Also, how long does it take you to fall asleep? Is your mind racing? My instinct is that you're pumping adrenaline, as this is a common side effect of hypothyroidism. (Which is why I'm curious about what you were eating before).

    I feel your pain! I'm borderline hypothyroid so our sleep difficulties are probably related. Hopefully some of the things I've figured out will be useful to you.
    You're so wise! Ok, so before I was eating 2100-2200 cals to maintain, low-fat (probably 60g) and high-ish-carb (about 250-350g), moderate protein. I didn't really count macros so I don't have exact numbers, but those are probably pretty good estimates. I did count calories though.

    Now, I've kept my calories the same (2100-2200), my protein is about 100-120g, carbs 175-200g, fat about 100+g. I'm also pretty active, nothing extreme though. Bfast is always 3 eggs, butter, piece of fruit. Lunch is usually a big salad with meat, oil, veggies, and a sweet potato with butter. afternoon snack is usually HB eggs, berries, some nuts. Dinner is usually very similar to lunch.

    I definitely feel like i'm pumping adrenaline. I've had insomnia in the past, it finally improved about a year ago, and now it randomly came back a week into primal. I'm feeling discouraged. I'm getting mixed advice to either change my food or just wait out the adjustment.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by AMC View Post
      You're so wise! Ok, so before I was eating 2100-2200 cals to maintain, low-fat (probably 60g) and high-ish-carb (about 250-350g), moderate protein. I didn't really count macros so I don't have exact numbers, but those are probably pretty good estimates. I did count calories though.

      Now, I've kept my calories the same (2100-2200), my protein is about 100-120g, carbs 175-200g, fat about 100+g. I'm also pretty active, nothing extreme though. Bfast is always 3 eggs, butter, piece of fruit. Lunch is usually a big salad with meat, oil, veggies, and a sweet potato with butter. afternoon snack is usually HB eggs, berries, some nuts. Dinner is usually very similar to lunch.

      I definitely feel like i'm pumping adrenaline. I've had insomnia in the past, it finally improved about a year ago, and now it randomly came back a week into primal. I'm feeling discouraged. I'm getting mixed advice to either change my food or just wait out the adjustment.
      Ah, okay - a few things.

      First, with you diet I can see a potential problem. How many cals per day are you getting from nuts? They're not a good source of carbs imo - particularly for sleeping. I'd switch the sweet potato to evening time. When I was really struggling with sleep eggs weren't good at night time either: they weren't heavy enough. I would aim to have quite a balanced meal every evening: protein, fat, carbs.

      I agree with Matt about the sugar: it really can help sleep, but I know in my case I would have to eat a ton of honey before it had any effect (which is pretty counter productive to weight loss ) One thing you could try is a herbal tea with milk, some honey, and a spoon of gelatine before bed. I like peppermint (I know it sounds gross but it tastes like hot mint ice cream! Kind of...)

      Also, you know that people with hypothyroidism shouldn't eat salad? It's like throwing a wet cloth on a fire.

      Secondly, maybe "waiting it out" works for some people, but it didn't resolve itself in my case. I had to find the sweet spot of the right amount of cals, the right foods, and the right macros. (I have no idea what either of these are as I don't count, but I actually think thats a truer way of gaging. You can't put numbers on what you need: it varies from day to day).

      I really believe that everyone has a unique constitution: some people are fine no matter what they eat; some people need more hacking If you're hypo you'll prob need to a lot of experimenting to find a way that you sleep well, feel good, and have energy. You seem quite patient though, so I'm sure you'll get there

      Thirdly, have you lost any weight on this woe yet? What made you decide to try to lose weight by keeping your cals the same but going high fat? And what was your woe before - was it SAD?

      Finally, this is the question doctors will ask you: what do you do before bed? ("sleep hygiene") How is your stress? Since you were sleeping fine before and haven't changed your routine I doubt this is the issue but it's worth taking into consideration.
      Last edited by YogaBare; 05-02-2013, 02:41 PM.
      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

      - Ray Peat

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
        Ah, okay - a few things.

        First, with you diet I can see a potential problem. How many cals per day are you getting from nuts? They're not a good source of carbs imo - particularly for sleeping. I'd switch the sweet potato to evening time. When I was really struggling with sleep eggs weren't good at night time either: they weren't heavy enough. I would aim to have quite a balanced meal every evening: protein, fat, carbs.

        I agree with Matt about the sugar: it really can help sleep, but I know in my case I would have to eat a ton of honey before it had any effect (which is pretty counter productive to weight loss ) One thing you could try is a herbal tea with milk, some honey, and a spoon of gelatine before bed. I like peppermint (I know it sounds gross but it tastes like hot mint ice cream! Kind of...)

        Also, you know that people with hypothyroidism shouldn't eat salad? It's like throwing a wet cloth on a fire.

        Secondly, maybe "waiting it out" works for some people, but it didn't resolve itself in my case. I had to find the sweet spot of the right amount of cals, the right foods, and the right macros. (I have no idea what either of these are as I don't count, but I actually think thats a truer way of gaging. You can't put numbers on what you need: it varies from day to day).

        I really believe that everyone has a unique constitution: some people are fine no matter what they eat; some people need more hacking If you're hypo you'll prob need to a lot of experimenting to find a way that you sleep well, feel good, and have energy. You seem quite patient though, so I'm sure you'll get there

        Thirdly, have you lost any weight on this woe yet? What made you decide to try to lose weight by keeping your cals the same but going high fat? And what was your woe before - was it SAD?

        Finally, this is the question doctors will ask you: what do you do before bed? ("sleep hygiene") How is your stress? Since you were sleeping fine before and haven't changed your routine I doubt this is the issue but it's worth taking into consideration.
        Thank you! I'm going to try ditching the nuts and see what happens. I will also have a sugary snack before bed, and eat my sweet potato later in the day.

        I haven't lost weight, but I haven't gained it either. I actually feel a lot less bloated so maybe that's a good sign. My macros switched to high fat, lower carb naturally just by going primal. I figured I should "primalize" myself before cutting calories, to see if just switching my woe had any affect. Yes, before I was eating SAD, although i wasn't too extreme- i ate my fair share of "protein bars" and whole grains, but I never really ate a lot of refined carbs (no white bread or anything). Just higher carb in general. I also ate low fat dairy.

        Admittedly, my stress is high from trying to get adjusted on this woe. I think some of the insomnia is coming from thinking too much about not being able to fall asleep "what if i didn't eat enough carbs, i bet my cortisol is so high right now, etc" is playing in my head when I try to fall asleep. This vicious cycle started after one night of staying up too late and then my sleep cycle went down the tube. It's hard to tell if it's stemming from stress or nutrition. I bet it's a combination.

        Before bed I usually read for an hour. It's what I've always done- actually before primal I could easily fall asleep while watching tv then get a great nights sleep. But I also wasn't thinking about my sleep so I wasn't so paranoid!

        Comment


        • #19
          Some things I found that worked for me with sleeping (that have been echoed in this thread)
          1. Take magnesium at night
          2. Have a heated banana (potassium + carbs) with some cream (fat) and chocolate (yum). This makes me feel hot at night, not cold.
          Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

          Griff's cholesterol primer
          5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
          Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
          TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
          bloodorchid is always right

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by AMC View Post
            Thank you! I'm going to try ditching the nuts and see what happens. I will also have a sugary snack before bed, and eat my sweet potato later in the day.

            I haven't lost weight, but I haven't gained it either. I actually feel a lot less bloated so maybe that's a good sign. My macros switched to high fat, lower carb naturally just by going primal. I figured I should "primalize" myself before cutting calories, to see if just switching my woe had any affect. Yes, before I was eating SAD, although i wasn't too extreme- i ate my fair share of "protein bars" and whole grains, but I never really ate a lot of refined carbs (no white bread or anything). Just higher carb in general. I also ate low fat dairy.

            Admittedly, my stress is high from trying to get adjusted on this woe. I think some of the insomnia is coming from thinking too much about not being able to fall asleep "what if i didn't eat enough carbs, i bet my cortisol is so high right now, etc" is playing in my head when I try to fall asleep. This vicious cycle started after one night of staying up too late and then my sleep cycle went down the tube. It's hard to tell if it's stemming from stress or nutrition. I bet it's a combination.

            Before bed I usually read for an hour. It's what I've always done- actually before primal I could easily fall asleep while watching tv then get a great nights sleep. But I also wasn't thinking about my sleep so I wasn't so paranoid!
            Ah, okay There's never just one reason for any issue: it's usually multi-factoral.

            Regarding the food: Try going back to higher carb but without whole grains or whatever. I'm not saying this is a better way to eat, but it would be interesting to see if eating higher carb makes you feel less stressed. Primal is reasonably low carb, but Paleo is not.

            You could be less bloated cos' you've cut out whole grains (and dairy?) And yeah, eat something more substantial than nuts in the evening. Don't be shy with your carbs at that point.

            Regarding the stress: Have you ever mediated? Some people focus on their breath, but that doesn't work for me. Another one is imagining like youre looking through the centre of your forehead, beyond the blackness. What i find really helpful saying a mantra over and over when I'm falling asleep. I recommend a neutral statement that that acknowledges your current state, instead of trying to be positive. So in your case, you could say something like "I know my mind is busy". IF that makes sense!
            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

            - Ray Peat

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
              Ah, okay There's never just one reason for any issue: it's usually multi-factoral.

              Regarding the food: Try going back to higher carb but without whole grains or whatever. I'm not saying this is a better way to eat, but it would be interesting to see if eating higher carb makes you feel less stressed. Primal is reasonably low carb, but Paleo is not.

              You could be less bloated cos' you've cut out whole grains (and dairy?) And yeah, eat something more substantial than nuts in the evening. Don't be shy with your carbs at that point.

              Regarding the stress: Have you ever mediated? Some people focus on their breath, but that doesn't work for me. Another one is imagining like youre looking through the centre of your forehead, beyond the blackness. What i find really helpful saying a mantra over and over when I'm falling asleep. I recommend a neutral statement that that acknowledges your current state, instead of trying to be positive. So in your case, you could say something like "I know my mind is busy". IF that makes sense!
              Thank you! Do you have any tips on how to facilitate weight loss? It seems like lowering calories/carbs/whatever is inevitably going to fire up my cortisol and stress hormones. So how do people have all of this miraculous weight loss on paleo/primal?
              I will try higher carb for a week or so and see where that takes me!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by AMC View Post
                Thank you! Do you have any tips on how to facilitate weight loss? It seems like lowering calories/carbs/whatever is inevitably going to fire up my cortisol and stress hormones. So how do people have all of this miraculous weight loss on paleo/primal?
                I will try higher carb for a week or so and see where that takes me!
                I think the most important thing is nurturing your metabolism by the way you live. The way you eat, and the way you exercise effect your metabolism, and it's not the same for everyone. If you're metabolism is working properly, you'll lose weight. That's basically the difficulty with weight gain and hypothyroidism!

                If you are hypo, I think you need to eat thyroid supporting foods. Which are carbs, salt, iodine etc.

                High fat works really well for some people, but not for others, and it seems that people with weak thyroids don't do well on it. I did it for six months and never got any of the benefits they talk about. I felt constantly hungry and deprived (which would indicate I never achieved that illusive "fat burning mode"), but more than that: I was never satisfied. I couldn't sleep, felt like a maniac (more than usual ), but it all makes sense now: I had an underlying thyroid condition so it wasn't suitable for me. Personally a balanced approach is working for me. It's making me less neurotic and I'm gradually losing the weight I gained over the last year (since going Primal, ironically :P)
                "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                - Ray Peat

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                  I think the most important thing is nurturing your metabolism by the way you live. The way you eat, and the way you exercise effect your metabolism, and it's not the same for everyone. If you're metabolism is working properly, you'll lose weight. That's basically the difficulty with weight gain and hypothyroidism!

                  If you are hypo, I think you need to eat thyroid supporting foods. Which are carbs, salt, iodine etc.

                  High fat works really well for some people, but not for others, and it seems that people with weak thyroids don't do well on it. I did it for six months and never got any of the benefits they talk about. I felt constantly hungry and deprived (which would indicate I never achieved that illusive "fat burning mode"), but more than that: I was never satisfied. I couldn't sleep, felt like a maniac (more than usual ), but it all makes sense now: I had an underlying thyroid condition so it wasn't suitable for me. Personally a balanced approach is working for me. It's making me less neurotic and I'm gradually losing the weight I gained over the last year (since going Primal, ironically :P)
                  Interesting! Since going primal my hunger issues have actually gotten alot better! I used to feel like the world was ending if I didn't eat every 2 hours at least. Now I can go 4 hours since upping the fat. Which is why I'm so confused about this sleep issue! I might just stop counting everything and see where my body takes me. I am going to always stay away from VLC though! I'll experiment high carb before I ditch counting- just to see if tha works!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by AMC View Post
                    Interesting! Since going primal my hunger issues have actually gotten alot better! I used to feel like the world was ending if I didn't eat every 2 hours at least. Now I can go 4 hours since upping the fat. Which is why I'm so confused about this sleep issue! I might just stop counting everything and see where my body takes me. I am going to always stay away from VLC though! I'll experiment high carb before I ditch counting- just to see if tha works!
                    Interesting that your hunger has gotten better... Although from everything I've read it seems like no one really knows what hunger is. There are lots of theories...

                    Bottom line - definitely listen to your body! Experiment and see what happens. Don't make drastic changes though - incremental. Let me know how it goes!
                    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                    - Ray Peat

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                      Interesting that your hunger has gotten better... Although from everything I've read it seems like no one really knows what hunger is. There are lots of theories...

                      Bottom line - definitely listen to your body! Experiment and see what happens. Don't make drastic changes though - incremental. Let me know how it goes!
                      I know- Its so weird to me! My energy levels and blood sugar have gotten pretty stable so it's throwing me off. But yes, I will definitely listen to the bod and move slowly and strategically so I can rule out what works. Will keep you posted. Thanks for your help, definitely thankful to have you around here!!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        It does seem that everyone's road is different. I don't even think can generalize by sex age or other issues. I would be the typical case where it wouldn't work well, but it has been really great for me. I lost most of my weight while still very hypothyroid, and at 54 obviously pretty screwed up hormonally. Saliva has shown low DHEA. progesterone very very low, estrogen high. Just in the process now of correcting those issues somewhat. My hunger/cravings vanished while on this, I cut out all starchy carbs while in the weight loss phase, ate berries and bananas, and other veg. but not in that great a quantity, and upped my fat intake. I did have the sleep issue for quite a while though, feeling wired at night and restless legs. I tried different things to help, but ended up on the magnesium, but I think it was mainly time that corrected it.
                        Started Primal June 2012 at 148.5lbs, and 5' 1", reached goal weight in 5 months.
                        Lowest weight 93lbs - too thin. Now stable at around 100lbs much better weight for me at my age.
                        Primal, minus eggs, dairy and a myriad of other allergens.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Silvergirl View Post
                          It does seem that everyone's road is different. I don't even think can generalize by sex age or other issues. I would be the typical case where it wouldn't work well, but it has been really great for me. I lost most of my weight while still very hypothyroid, and at 54 obviously pretty screwed up hormonally. Saliva has shown low DHEA. progesterone very very low, estrogen high. Just in the process now of correcting those issues somewhat. My hunger/cravings vanished while on this, I cut out all starchy carbs while in the weight loss phase, ate berries and bananas, and other veg. but not in that great a quantity, and upped my fat intake. I did have the sleep issue for quite a while though, feeling wired at night and restless legs. I tried different things to help, but ended up on the magnesium, but I think it was mainly time that corrected it.
                          Thanks silver girl! I think experimentation is key, cause you're right- we all react differently. Glad to hear that other people have had the insomnia too and that it goes away for the most part. I was getting frustrated and ready to give up on primal!

                          I did higher carbs (by alot) the past three nights just to see. And it didnt even affect my sleep! Still the same old insomnia. So I'm just going to eat to my hunger and see if it passes naturally.

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                          • #28
                            I've found losing weight and eating a heavy dinner are two things that delay my sleep. Losing weight while eating a heavy dinner, even more so.

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