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HCG, IF and Ketosis - the Unholy Trinity of Metabolic Downregulation

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
    High PUFA fat intake is a good way to make a stressful state even more stressful.
    How much PUFA is there in leafy greens and fiberous vegetables?

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    Omni, what about PB's hero, "Bear" Owsley who was convinced that glycogen from fresh animals would knock you out of ketosis? Seems like almost all meat would have been eaten fresh, wonder what kind of carb load that would be.
    Don't know "Bear" Owsley but glycogen content of meat is only a couple of percent and if they chased the bugger for a while before killing it, it was probably near enough to nothing.

    There is the whole thing about boosting glycogen of commercial animals for slaughter to bulk up the meat akin to body building and also encourages lactic bacteria whose production of lactic acid prevent septic bacteria taking hold.
    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Omni View Post

      Don't know "Bear" Owsley but glycogen content of meat is only a couple of percent and if they chased the bugger for a while before killing it, it was probably near enough to nothing.

      There is the whole thing about boosting glycogen of commercial animals for slaughter to bulk up the meat akin to body building and also encourages lactic bacteria whose production of lactic acid prevent septic bacteria taking hold.
      Hmm, interesting thoughts. I would imagine that a big animal would carry quite a bit of glycogen in both liver and muscle, on the other hand there is only so much a person can eat.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Omni View Post
        Don't know "Bear" Owsley but glycogen content of meat is only a couple of percent and if they chased the bugger for a while before killing it, it was probably near enough to nothing.
        Lol, Bear was the Dead's soundman and a prolific LSD maker. I never knew he was a VLC pioneer.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Omni View Post
          How much PUFA is there in leafy greens and fiberous vegetables?
          Enough, especially because they can be consumed in great quantities with ease.
          Make America Great Again

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Kegas76 View Post
            Lol, Bear was the Dead's soundman and a prolific LSD maker. I never knew he was a VLC pioneer.
            Supposedly over 40 years eating nothing but muscle meat. There is a crazy long thread at some VLC forums where he tells his story and answers questions. Interesting read for sure.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Victofgria
              Battling Bipolar Disorder with nutritional ketosis!
              How you doing with that?
              Have you seen any significant improvements?
              I know the deal with epilepsy and now alzheimers and possibly parkinsons, just curious about other disease conditions, I know a few people with AI diseases, depression & MS,
              seems most of us have some degree of disease even if we aren't aware of it.
              "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Omni View Post
                How you doing with that?
                Have you seen any significant improvements?
                I know the deal with epilepsy and now alzheimers and possibly parkinsons, just curious about other disease conditions, I know a few people with AI diseases, depression & MS,
                seems most of us have some degree of disease even if we aren't aware of it.
                You responded to a spambot
                Make America Great Again

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                  You responded to a spambot
                  Yeah, just realised when I saw the other threads, most of the time they only get 3 or 4 posts up.

                  You don't suppose I might get an intelligent reply?
                  "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Omni View Post
                    Yeah, just realised when I saw the other threads, most of the time they only get 3 or 4 posts up.

                    You don't suppose I might get an intelligent reply?
                    From the spambot? Likely not. I don't have any experience with bipolar disorder, so I don't have any knowledge about nutritional ketosis and its effects on it.

                    Something to ask MarrisaLinnea(who the spambot stole that from) maybe
                    Make America Great Again

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                    • #70
                      Thanks for the pointer, will do.
                      "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Zach View Post
                        No, i was responding to MEversbergs question about evolution and ketosis. You brought up her book and i called her what she is and nowhere did i use the word "only". My comment about what does that have to do with MEversbergs question was in response to your reply that she deals with neurologically challenged people (you).

                        Really not that hard, try to keep up.

                        As for the majority of our evolution being in severely cold climates, thats just complete bull. Listen PB, i know your personality and facial features may suggest a hard life in the arctic but im quite certain not you or anyone else here has Inuit ancestry.

                        Now what about the original question. Would these ancestors living in severely cold climates be in ketosis or would that not be possible without downing sticks of butter and lard?
                        OK, you didn't say "only", you said she was and I quote, "a freakin' nutritional therapist". You were wrong, in addition to being snotty. That's what telling you about her medical practice was relevant to. Try reading her book before calling it bull. At least try doing a little research before embarrassing yourself by saying that European Cro Magnon farmed and the Arctic has only been inhabited for 2000 years. Nora Gedgaudas has done her research.

                        Who needs sticks of butter and lard when you have wooly mammoth suet?

                        And The Bear is not my hero. He is an interesting example of someone who lived a very healthy life despite the physical rigors of partying like a fool for decades with the Dead. He did it on an all meat diet. Some of the things he says make sense and some are total bunk (e.g. don't eat any salt).
                        Last edited by Paleobird; 05-03-2013, 10:49 PM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Zach View Post
                          I believe he meant nutritional ketosis, like longterm Inuit style. If your consuming your body or eating nothing, that is starvation and yes its similar to nutritional ketosis but i dont think exactly the same.

                          Omni, what about PB's hero, "Bear" Owsley who was convinced that glycogen from fresh animals would knock you out of ketosis? Seems like almost all meat would have been eaten fresh, wonder what kind of carb load that would be.
                          It's unlikely even the inuit were in ketosis long term.
                          http://www.jbc.org/content/80/2/461.full.pdf

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                          • #73
                            I do like these old paper's, the good old days when scientists were really true to the search for knowledge.

                            Some interesting points from the paper.
                            1/ The respiratory quotients mentioned in the fasting period, 0.64, 0.60 & 0.71 perfectly matches the respiratory quotient for fat metabolism, hence there was no or absolute minimum carbohydrate metabolism occuring during this period.
                            2/ There was no or minimal nitrogen compounds in their urine, an indicator that minimal amounts of protein were being broken down for gluconeogenesis.
                            3/ Extrordinarily low levels of Ketone bodies were detected on their breath or in their urine, now if I'm not mistaken this is the case for individuals who are well adapted to a ketogenic diet, significant ketone bodies are only detected in the breath and urine when one is in the process of adapting and excess ketone bodies are disposed of that way until the rest of the body fully adapts.
                            4/ Glucose tolerance at the end of fasting was markedly reduced, therefore these individuals bodies were in ketosis and their bodies were now tuned to minimal glucose, hence needed time to switch back.
                            5/ Glucose tolerence was excellent (better than normal subjects) at the beginning of the study, indicating to me they were probably in a low carb diet state, borderline ketosis and were actively using dietary glucose, this is confirmed by the diet breakdown of 54g carbohydrate.
                            6/ Non protein nitrogen content of blood (Urea) same as other races, this factor indicates that in their normal diet there was minimal gluconeogenesis occuring from the breakdown of protein.

                            These points suggest to me the contrary, that the individuals in the study were actually highly adapted to a Ketogenic diet. In warmer times their protein intake did look far to high at around 60% of macro's and point 6 seems to contradict this figure, I do question that as they were fully aware of "Rabbit Starvation", we also must remember those macro's were quoted from a different source and weren't specific to these subjects. Nevertheless in colder weather and when travelling fat intake was much higher and in these times they undoubtably would have been in a ketogenic state.

                            Still a great paper, will go back and have another read.
                            Last edited by Omni; 05-04-2013, 03:55 AM.
                            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                              First of all, almost every serious dieter out there has tried Atkins, which is based on ketosis. I bet her "successful" majority had done it as much as her fail group.

                              And intermittent fasting is so new to the diet scene that hardly any conventional dieters have even heard of it yet. It's hard to believe that any of them have been doing it for years.

                              I can believe that HCG and the diet required can screw a metabolism up. I think she's got that part right.
                              I did HCG, under my (paleo-supporting) doctor's supervision. June, 2010: 269 to 245 pounds. September, 2010: 245 to 225 pounds. January 2012: 225 to 210 pounds.

                              At the end of the last round I began serious free weight training (evolving through 4-hour body-ish to Starting strength-ish to 5-3-1 [present]. That made it impossible to maintain the 210 weight.

                              The realization, encouraged by the HCG maintenance information I had, that I had to change how and what I eat led me to Tim Ferris, and then, here.

                              Present weight: 225
                              Hight: 6'1"
                              Age: 65
                              Current calories per day (eating --80-90% paleo) when hungry: 2500-3500--I think my metabolism is OK.

                              I'm pretty happy with HCG, but, there is lots of bad advice and misinformation about it on line. No one should do it without a doc who "gets it" and encourages real food/primal change for maintenance.

                              I also think I might have gotten the same results If I'd understood paleo (like information here) better at the time. However, the HCG diet gave me a way to ditch grains for 3-4 weeks --broke the addiction. I decided to make that permanent. Most don't -- and they fail to keep the weight loss.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Rich Capalbo View Post
                                I'm pretty happy with HCG, but, there is lots of bad advice and misinformation about it on line. No one should do it without a doc who "gets it" and encourages real food/primal change for maintenance.
                                As with most diets, there are things that can be done to mitigate the effects. And the positive influence of having a doctor working with you probably served as motivation to seek out healthy life habits.

                                I had a girlfriend who did it (as I would guess most people do) on her own, without a doctor's help. She's pretty depressed about how it turned out. Of course she ended up gaining back more weight than she lost.

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