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HCG, IF and Ketosis - the Unholy Trinity of Metabolic Downregulation

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  • #31
    Originally posted by canuck416 View Post
    I think the key is constant variety. I'm currently going through a month long VLC with Refeeds trial and doing lots of strength training with weights. After this I'll probably up the carbs considerably eating more vegetables and fruit during the summer and add in some long slow distance running/hiking and perhaps switch over to some Crossfit and MovNat training. Then spend a month or two just powerlifting and sprinting. I love the variety and it seems to keep me fresh and enthused.
    I agree. Much in life is cyclical. We discuss how eating the same foods day in and day out (probably not detrimental in just a month canuck ) can lead to a buildup of metabolites and even food specific toxins in the system. A perfect reason to either cycle your food source or eat a varied diet. I prefer to cycle. I really don't mind eating the same crock pot meal for about a week at a time. Same with exercise continuous stress of the same sort without a change may actually be detrimental. Thats where people invented things like periodization and deloads and such, but I'd just as soon do like you and take up a completely different activity set for a while.

    I do however agree with Omni's post in that you may have metabolic dysfunction at either end of the spectrum. That is, if you can't handle ketosis for a period of time without falling apart you very well may have some underlying issue. Same difference as the metabolic glucose dysfunction with higher carb just now its with your fat burning machinery or in context of the inability to adapt quickly to a necessary physiological shift.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 05-02-2013, 11:46 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
      Perhaps you could give us evidence of the thousands of people you claim you personally know who did Atkins and then followed up by deliberately integrating it with carb refeeds.
      Well said eKatherine. (P.S.: I wasn't one of them, and I've maintained my loss for over 3 years). Zach thinks what works for him works for everyone. Simply not true.
      Starting Weight: 197.5
      Current Weight: 123
      Far healthier!

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      • #33
        I'm just annoyed when people make up numbers to support their pet theories and expect you to just accept them.

        I have no doubt that an Atkins dieter who stalled could indeed switch to a different WOE or cycle. But they don't. The Atkins people haven't heard of carb refeeds, nor have dieters in general.
        Last edited by eKatherine; 05-02-2013, 01:56 PM.

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        • #34
          I dont make up numbers. I have been researching diet and following people like Mark Sisson over 8 years. I have read so much on the subject in that time its incredible.

          Im not here to convince people like you who have closed their minds to other ways and apparently think they are getting good results with what they are doing... Just here to let people know that there are other opinions then the primal approved one. Surprisingly enough, many dont know this since the common advice is "Primals not working? PRIMAL HARDER!".

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          • #35
            I don't THINK I'm getting good results, Zach. I already got them. And I'm maintaining them too.

            And I've done plenty of research as well which is how I came to a primal low carb plan that works for me when NOTHING ELSE DID. You say that we have closed minds? I think your mind is closed to my and many other people's excellent results. They are results mind you, not theory, so don't dismiss them so easily.
            Starting Weight: 197.5
            Current Weight: 123
            Far healthier!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Zach
              I dont make up numbers. I have been researching diet and following people like Mark Sisson over 8 years. I have read so much on the subject in that time its incredible.
              Declaration of authority.

              Originally posted by Zach
              Im not here to convince people like you who have closed their minds to other ways and apparently think they are getting good results with what they are doing... Just here to let people know that there are other opinions then the primal approved one.
              Moral high ground positioning.

              Originally posted by Zach
              Surprisingly enough, many dont know this since the common advice is "Primals not working? PRIMAL HARDER!".
              Trashing opposing view.

              Those statement's put yourself front and centre of closed mind philosophy.
              "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by canuck416 View Post
                I think the key is constant variety. I'm currently going through a month long VLC with Refeeds trial and doing lots of strength training with weights. After this I'll probably up the carbs considerably eating more vegetables and fruit during the summer and add in some long slow distance running/hiking and perhaps switch over to some Crossfit and MovNat training. Then spend a month or two just powerlifting and sprinting. I love the variety and it seems to keep me fresh and enthused.
                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                I agree. Much in life is cyclical. We discuss how eating the same foods day in and day out (probably not detrimental in just a month canuck ) can lead to a buildup of metabolites and even food specific toxins in the system. A perfect reason to either cycle your food source or eat a varied diet. I prefer to cycle. I really don't mind eating the same crock pot meal for about a week at a time. Same with exercise continuous stress of the same sort without a change may actually be detrimental. Thats where people invented things like periodization and deloads and such, but I'd just as soon do like you and take up a completely different activity set for a while.

                I do however agree with Omni's post in that you may have metabolic dysfunction at either end of the spectrum. That is, if you can't handle ketosis for a period of time without falling apart you very well may have some underlying issue. Same difference as the metabolic glucose dysfunction with higher carb just now its with your fat burning machinery or in context of the inability to adapt quickly to a necessary physiological shift.
                This is where I think it is flexibility and adaptability to changing conditions and environment, eating with the seasons.
                Spending a month feasting on meat, fat & marrow, like our ancesters would after some big kills.
                Fasting for a week with nothing but water and the odd berry, green or measly tuber whilst trecking to greener pastures.
                Dodging the bears to get our fair share of the fat salmon running up river.
                Gorging on fruits and nuts for weeks on end in late summer, and putting on some weight in preparation for the long winter.

                Meat and fat was always the preffered food, but was not always available, just like honey easy to gorge on but hard to get, so this should always be kept in mind, there should be times of plenty and times of scarcity.
                Just because some foods were relegated to times of scarcity doesn't mean they weren't good for us and likewise just because we have times of plenty doesn't mean this is the healthiest way to eat all the time.
                "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Zach View Post
                  Yes because opinions of thousands means nothing if there isnt a study to back it up, right. You cannot ignore the massive amount of people eating VLC having metabolic issues after a few solid months.
                  Originally posted by janie View Post
                  I don't THINK I'm getting good results, Zach. I already got them. And I'm maintaining them too.

                  And I've done plenty of research as well which is how I came to a primal low carb plan that works for me when NOTHING ELSE DID. You say that we have closed minds? I think your mind is closed to my and many other people's excellent results. They are results mind you, not theory, so don't dismiss them so easily.
                  I realized today that I've lost 72 pounds. Really. What.ever.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Zach View Post
                    Its so funny when people say that "people thrive on ketosis". Can you please give me some examples of people thriving on full time ketosis?
                    Me. 65 lbs gone and staying gone. Climbed Mt Kilimangaro on VLC. Seizure free on 25% less medication.

                    Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                    I'm just annoyed when people make up numbers to support their pet theories and expect you to just accept them.
                    85% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Didn't you know that?

                    Originally posted by janie View Post
                    I don't THINK I'm getting good results, Zach. I already got them. And I'm maintaining them too.

                    And I've done plenty of research as well which is how I came to a primal low carb plan that works for me when NOTHING ELSE DID. You say that we have closed minds? I think your mind is closed to my and many other people's excellent results. They are results mind you, not theory, so don't dismiss them so easily.
                    This. Yes, there are the "Why isn't this working for me?" threads. Reading a few of those=/=doing research into the subject. Those of us for whom it did work and continues to work are not writing posts about it. We are too busy climbing mountains.

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                    • #40
                      Eight pounds lost already, major depressive and hypomanic episodes are gone. Ahem.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I am wondering how our Out-Of-African ancestors stayed OUT of ketosis in the winter. Extra protein?

                        M.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MEversbergII View Post
                          I am wondering how our Out-Of-African ancestors stayed OUT of ketosis in the winter. Extra protein?

                          M.
                          Well thinking that our ancestors had cold winters might be a mistake. Out of Africa, people followed the warmth and coast line. Most people cought in bad weather either probably died or found a way to survive unill they found better conditions. People only started moving and living in more northern climates fairly recently. The Inuit for example are only about 2000 years old i believe. Northern Europeans would have been farming the entire time so they would have dairy, roots, starchs, grains, beans, dried fruit, etc.

                          As for ketosis during extreme times, its doubtful that anyone not able to get extremely fatty animals like whale/seals would be able to enter ketosis. Most wild game is a lot leaner then the animals we eat and they wouldnt have access to concentrated fat like we get from oils. Your probably right the protein would keep them out of ketosis. I know that raw fresh meat from muscles and liver have carbs from glycogen as well so people might get some this way.

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                          • #43
                            They did follow the coast, but it's only coincidental that it was warm on the section of coastline from ethiopia to SE Asia, once they rounded the Asian continent and went north skirting the Glacial maximum on the Bering straight and then all the way down to the tip of SA 15-20kya, certainly a lot of cold weather on that journey, they adapted and populated as they went.
                            Don't know about the Inuit in particular, but records going back 10kya have been found inland in northern canada, earlier evidence is likely below sea level know, we know for the bulk of that period sealevels were much lower due to the glaciation.

                            CroMagnon man arrived in Europe some 40kya, no farming then, they lived alongside and likely in much the same way as Neanderthal man at the edge of glaciation and a generally temperate colder climate, herding and dairy may have preceded farming by 2-5ky but not by 30ky.
                            The interesting thing occuring now is the humanisation of the Neanderthal man and other "Archaic' humans like Denisovan man, there is clear evidence that there was DNA exchange (Interbreeding) once we left Africa, up to 4% Neanderthal in some european populations and 7% Denisovan in some Melanesean populations, the rest of Asia and Europe have varying mixes, even African populations show indications of interbreeding with a different Archaic Human population.

                            Aside from the very interesting prospect of Blonde haired Blue eyed Neanderthals, the majority of inherited genes identified are related to the immune system, so there are a number of questions here, a large number of neanderthal fossils easily fit within the variation of modern humans today and if we could breed with them, maybe they might have just been another race of humans and if this is true, then we need to take more note of their evolutionary history as it may play just as much of a role in who we are, even though their genetic contribution was quite small, the fact they spent between 300-500ky adapting in europe significantly multiplies the value of their contribution to our Genome.

                            The whole One Anatomicaly Modern Human walking out of Africa hypothesis is starting to break up and take on board some of the contradictions posed by the Multi Regional hypothesis, but that's for another day.
                            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                            • #44
                              The Americas have been peopled for somewhere between 15,000 and 40,000 years depending on which archaeologists you believe. The Inuit are newer kids on the block.

                              Settlement of the Americas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                              Anyone interested in a scientifically founded breakdown of the fact that we did most of our evolving under climatically harsh conditions should read Nora Gedgaudas' book "Primal Body, Primal Mind."

                              Zach tends to talk out of orifices not intended for speech when it comes to revisionist history.

                              Tying to picture this Cro Magnon European guy farming. Yeahright, Zach.

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                              • #45
                                Nora Gedgaudas is just another VLC pushing quack. Shes a freakin nutritional therapist.

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