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HCG, IF and Ketosis - the Unholy Trinity of Metabolic Downregulation

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    Yes because opinions of thousands means nothing if there isnt a study to back it up, right. You cannot ignore the massive amount of people eating VLC having metabolic issues after a few solid months.
    A couple things. I'm responding directly to the article, which lumps three lifestyle choices involving nutrition into a single group and makes a claim. It's simplistic at best. For instance zach... can you assure me that people who do high carb, practice IF fall into this unholy trinity? I think the kitavins are a fine representation here. The rely predominantly on 1-2 large meals a day and don't snack even though their carb levels are on the high end. I just don't get it. Actually I kinda do, but that would just make for more theorizing and metabolic mud slinging (I think it has to do with insulin ). I'll admit I don't know enough about HCG to have an opinion. It has not interested me as I would think things have to be rather extreme to consider such a course. As for VLC..... the author is a high carb advocate training as a powerlifter and cites other high intensity athletes as sources.... meh, I don't actually think VLC is great for frequent glycolytic bouts myself. As for the "thousands" having issue I think the coorelation and causation bit has something to say. That and I've seen many people (usually those adopting it to reduce seizure or diabetic concerns) doing quite well. It's all quite individual to your goals and circumstances. It very well may be that her clients tend to be a complete wreck that just need to get healthy nutritious foods without worrying about calories for several months. Thats a subset of the population that will likely benefit from her approach. Other subsets.... not so much.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by serenity View Post
      I think it's because most (all?) of her clients are women. And, let's face it, when it comes to weight loss, men and women are not exactly the same. This is probably because our endocrine systems are not the same, and metabolic regulation is mostly mediated by hormones. So what works well for me may not work well for women.
      It's also true that women are socialized from their early teens to believe that it is necessary to be unnaturally thin, and that perpeptual dieting is the solution. Being on a diet may change one's metabolism, but even more it can result in psychological and emotional issues and disordered eating habits.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
        They have done studies on Atkins. They haven't found what your anecdotal conjecture tells you from your reading of dozens of complaint threads over the years that involve many different variables. But YMMV. I'm sure following your n=1 you will someday achieve perfection of body, mind, and spirit.
        Hey, believe what you want. There are no shortage of failures on ketosis diets, from the random forumer to the biggest names in paleo.

        And its thousands of complaints, not dozens. As for myself, im as happy and healthy as ever. Hope you can say the same!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          A couple things. I'm responding directly to the article, which lumps three lifestyle choices involving nutrition into a single group and makes a claim. It's simplistic at best. For instance zach... can you assure me that people who do high carb, practice IF fall into this unholy trinity? I think the kitavins are a fine representation here. The rely predominantly on 1-2 large meals a day and don't snack even though their carb levels are on the high end. I just don't get it. Actually I kinda do, but that would just make for more theorizing and metabolic mud slinging (I think it has to do with insulin ). I'll admit I don't know enough about HCG to have an opinion. It has not interested me as I would think things have to be rather extreme to consider such a course. As for VLC..... the author is a high carb advocate training as a powerlifter and cites other high intensity athletes as sources.... meh, I don't actually think VLC is great for frequent glycolytic bouts myself. As for the "thousands" having issue I think the coorelation and causation bit has something to say. That and I've seen many people (usually those adopting it to reduce seizure or diabetic concerns) doing quite well. It's all quite individual to your goals and circumstances. It very well may be that her clients tend to be a complete wreck that just need to get healthy nutritious foods without worrying about calories for several months. Thats a subset of the population that will likely benefit from her approach. Other subsets.... not so much.
          I already responded to the IF above but no, it would seem that a low fat, high carb diet does not produce the same metabolic lowering effects as the opposite or from IF. Most likely this is from keeping thyroid output high and lack of stress hormones. Even something as extreme as the potato diet seems safe, although that has to be kept ahort for other reasons.

          I agree that everyones case is individual and i dont blame all problems on lack of carbs. But even you cant disagree with the amount of problems people have with longterm ketosis with zero refeeds. Sure there will be problems with not enough calories, too much protein and or pUFA. But the common theme is carbs or lack there of.
          Last edited by Zach; 05-01-2013, 10:48 AM.

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          • #20
            it would seem that a low fat, high carb diet does not produce the same metabolic lowering effects as the opposite
            I disagree. I think that the most common diet in the US is low fat, high carb, lots of cardio and there are enough fat women running every day and eating low fat, low calorie diets to prove that lowers your metabolism too.

            I think the reality is that FAT loss is slow, and no amount of starving yourself be it through ketosis or low fat is going to make it faster. The only solution is eating a generally healthy diet and being patient.

            http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
            Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
              I disagree. I think that the most common diet in the US is low fat, high carb, lots of cardio and there are enough fat women running every day and eating low fat, low calorie diets to prove that lowers your metabolism too.

              I think the reality is that FAT loss is slow, and no amount of starving yourself be it through ketosis or low fat is going to make it faster. The only solution is eating a generally healthy diet and being patient.
              Yes lots of cardio is very dangerous on any diet. I was not factoring in exercise.

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              • #22
                the problem with ketosis is that most practioners eat way too much protein. The protein triggers a cascade of reactions similar to carb intake and stalls them ou.

                I think a ketogenic diet has to have moderate protein, similar to Ron Rosesdale's dietary principles.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Zach View Post
                  I agree that everyones case is individual and i dont blame all problems on lack of carbs. But even you cant disagree with the amount of problems people have with longterm ketosis with zero refeeds. Sure there will be problems with not enough calories, too much protein and or pUFA. But the common theme is carbs or lack there of.
                  I'm still out with the Jury on the whole carb thing, there are plenty of examples of individuals both male and female thriving in ketosis.
                  You have to be careful when using that type of logic that because the addition of carbs improves symptoms, then the lack of carbs must have caused their symptoms.

                  Most everyone here looks at studies and disputes that very same logic by looking for other confounding variables, in the situations here the confounders is that most everyone that has had troubles with going VLC has come from a long history of disease, dieting & metabolic dysfunction.
                  We know that there are significant metabolic adjustments required for someone to adapt to fat as a primary fuel after being dependant on glucose most of their lives, if they attempt this transition whilst their body is on the fringe of nutrition then the metabolic slowdown is completely expected, the body will do whatever it can to survive, if it does not have the energy to support basic maintenance and you ask it to develop additional metabolic machinery, what other option is there.

                  We are much wiser now with hormonal therapies, yes it may be appropriate to supplement low levels so that symptoms are relieved and quality of life is improved, but we know that the underlying causes of the imbalances need to be adressed so that full health can be regained.

                  So in the same way with carbohydrate, yes by all means add more in to improve the way you feel, but continue to look for other underlying issues that need to be corrected. I do see the ability to maintain healthy ketosis as one measure of health, not that you have to always be in ketosis, but to fall apart at the seams when carbohydrate is restricted does not bode well for evolutionary survival.

                  I do not buy into the "we're all different" argument in this, we may all have different underlying problems that need to be addressed, but IMO there will be very few individuals, when their health is fully restored can not maintain healthy ketosis.

                  We did not evolve in a "Garden of Eden" type of scenario, with a full pantry, there were significant bouts of food scarcity, metabolic failure at that point results in being something elses lunch and hence extinction, this was obviously not the case as we're all here to debate the issue.
                  "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                  • #24
                    I've lost over 100 lbs doing both ketosis and IF and am still waiting on some metabolic down regulating nonsense to happen. I do lose slow, at least it feels that way to me. The only way the pounds "fall off" me is by doing extremely low calorie levels a la the PSMF. That is, IMO, not healthy or sustainable long term and to lose 100 lbs it took being in it for the long haul. I chose Atkins then found Paleo and did a Primal/Paleo version of Atkins and have never looked back.

                    I incorporated IF eating twice a day within a 6-8 hour eating window because I'm never hungry in the morning and if I eat when not hungry it just makes me ravenous throughout the day. I eat brunch and dinner with a snack of iced coffee with cream or coconut milk almost every day. Calorie range was 1300-1500 usually closer to 1300. Whole foods, watching net carbs (which is just subtracting fiber when your eating mainly whole natural foods), high fat but not going overboard, and exercise almost everyday. The only "magic" has been dropping the carbs esp higher sugar fruits and "healthy" whole grains. Other than that it's just common sense, eating the right foods, not too much of them, and moving my body. Clearly the IF/ketosis combo works just fine for me.

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                    • #25
                      I IF pretty regularly, mainly because I am rarely hungry in the morning and too lazy / cheap to bring lunch to work. I don't track how many calories I eat, though. Don't think I have any metabolic issues, but who knows.

                      M.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Omni View Post
                        I'm still out with the Jury on the whole carb thing, there are plenty of examples of individuals both male and female thriving in ketosis.
                        You have to be careful when using that type of logic that because the addition of carbs improves symptoms, then the lack of carbs must have caused their symptoms.

                        Most everyone here looks at studies and disputes that very same logic by looking for other confounding variables, in the situations here the confounders is that most everyone that has had troubles with going VLC has come from a long history of disease, dieting & metabolic dysfunction.
                        We know that there are significant metabolic adjustments required for someone to adapt to fat as a primary fuel after being dependant on glucose most of their lives, if they attempt this transition whilst their body is on the fringe of nutrition then the metabolic slowdown is completely expected, the body will do whatever it can to survive, if it does not have the energy to support basic maintenance and you ask it to develop additional metabolic machinery, what other option is there.

                        We are much wiser now with hormonal therapies, yes it may be appropriate to supplement low levels so that symptoms are relieved and quality of life is improved, but we know that the underlying causes of the imbalances need to be adressed so that full health can be regained.

                        So in the same way with carbohydrate, yes by all means add more in to improve the way you feel, but continue to look for other underlying issues that need to be corrected. I do see the ability to maintain healthy ketosis as one measure of health, not that you have to always be in ketosis, but to fall apart at the seams when carbohydrate is restricted does not bode well for evolutionary survival.

                        I do not buy into the "we're all different" argument in this, we may all have different underlying problems that need to be addressed, but IMO there will be very few individuals, when their health is fully restored can not maintain healthy ketosis.

                        We did not evolve in a "Garden of Eden" type of scenario, with a full pantry, there were significant bouts of food scarcity, metabolic failure at that point results in being something elses lunch and hence extinction, this was obviously not the case as we're all here to debate the issue.
                        Its so funny when people say that "people thrive on ketosis". Can you please give me some examples of people thriving on full time ketosis?

                        The evolutionary argument for ketosis is ridiculous. Just because humans can survive by means of ketosis does not mean that it is a healthy part of our survival. No one was thriving back in the day when in ketosis because they were starving at the same time. Thinking about it that way, it would be something people should strive to avoid at all costs to stay in peak physical health.

                        Also evolution covers millions of years and you do not know in what conditions we evolved. Yes there were times on starvation and food scarcity but there were probably also thousands of years of abundance as well. Who know what part of that evolution impacts us the most. Is it a constant supply of nutriants that keep our species at optimal health or is it the times of famine that make us resilient? Could be both but since i have no need to fear a famine, i will choose to fuel myself as optimally as possible, 24/7/365.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Zach View Post
                          Its so funny when people say that "people thrive on ketosis". Can you please give me some examples of people thriving on full time ketosis?

                          The evolutionary argument for ketosis is ridiculous. Just because humans can survive by means of ketosis does not mean that it is a healthy part of our survival. No one was thriving back in the day when in ketosis because they were starving at the same time. Thinking about it that way, it would be something people should strive to avoid at all costs to stay in peak physical health.

                          Also evolution covers millions of years and you do not know in what conditions we evolved. Yes there were times on starvation and food scarcity but there were probably also thousands of years of abundance as well. Who know what part of that evolution impacts us the most. Is it a constant supply of nutriants that keep our species at optimal health or is it the times of famine that make us resilient? Could be both but since i have no need to fear a famine, i will choose to fuel myself as optimally as possible, 24/7/365.
                          I'm an example of thriving in ketosis and have done so for over 4 years. Weight loss, muscle gain, lowered BP (114/74), improved lipids, no medications, more energy, younger looking skin, perfect dental visits, etc. People routinely think I much younger than my 67 years.
                          Last edited by janie; 05-02-2013, 10:14 AM.
                          Starting Weight: 197.5
                          Current Weight: 123
                          Far healthier!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Zach View Post
                            Its so funny when people say that "people thrive on ketosis". Can you please give me some examples of people thriving on full time ketosis?
                            Perhaps you could give us evidence of the thousands of people you claim you personally know who did Atkins and then followed up by deliberately integrating it with carb refeeds.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                              Perhaps you could give us evidence of the thousands of people you claim you personally know who did Atkins and then followed up by deliberately integrating it with carb refeeds.
                              I said i have read thousands of personal experiences dealing with failed ketosis. The atkins diet is the biggest failure of the diet world.

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                              • #30
                                I think the key is constant variety. I'm currently going through a month long VLC with Refeeds trial and doing lots of strength training with weights. After this I'll probably up the carbs considerably eating more vegetables and fruit during the summer and add in some long slow distance running/hiking and perhaps switch over to some Crossfit and MovNat training. Then spend a month or two just powerlifting and sprinting. I love the variety and it seems to keep me fresh and enthused.
                                Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

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