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high fruit and nut diet vs fat/meat.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    You eat quite a bit more carbs then the traditional VLC'r. You do refeeds, correct? Kitavans arent the only high carbohydrate society that is in great health. Most asians eat the majority of calories from rice and are very lean.
    I wasn't saying the Kitavans are the only example. Just using them as the "black swan" because many here are familiar with them, and it only takes one to prove that "all swans are white" is false.

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    No saturated fat fearing here. I think thy are healthier because their diet excludes pufa, AGE's, chemicals and seeds/grains.
    Aside from the AGE's (which I'm not convinced are a problem in their biologically normal forms, i.e. from seared meats), Paleo/primal eaters should be excluding/minimizing these things as well. it's Primal Blueprint Law #2.

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    Because they avoid all animal products i think the majority do fall into some trouble with fat soluble vitamins and b12. I in no way think they are as healthy as they could be
    No disagreement from me there.

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    but eating a diet of mostly raw organic fruit really does seem to do wonders for skin, digestion, body composition.
    Because of what they're eating, or because of what they're not eating? See above.

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    There also seems to be quite te detox effect and of course losing all the excess fat is insanely healthy.
    Agree.

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    Usually they fail at eating enough calories and that is when the trouble starts.
    You don't think inadequate protein and fat-soluble vitamins is where the trouble starts?

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    The majority of paleo followers are obese and sick
    Which is why they seek out Paleo/Primal. It's not eating in a manner informed by tens of thousands of years of history that makes them sick, it's eating processed crap that's passed off as food that makes people fat and sick.

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    and a diet very heavy in the things i mentioned above does not help their situations.
    I know you know better. It seems like you're confusing Primal or Paleo with Atkins here. I think every informed person on this forum would agree that for non-Celiac sufferers, PUFAs are enemy #1.

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    I do think there is a correct way to low carb, very few understand this though.
    Is it different than what's actually advocated by the Robb Wolf's and Mark Sisson's of the world, or is it just different than what you think the adherents actually do? If you think the right way is to eat nutrient dense foods like liver and other organs, limit nuts and seeds, and avoid PUFA's, you're not really arguing against the Primal/Paleo version of low-carb at all.

    Is there something else you think we're missing?
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      I usually find myself defending low carb as a viable option rather than pushing it as the only one..... there is a big difference.
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      100% agree.
      Yep.
      I'll never understand the need of some people to argue vehemently against something just because it's not what works for them... or not what they choose personally.


      I do choose HFLC for my own reasons, but have never said it's the right diet for everyone, or argued that it's the ONE right diet... I just get sick of being told repeatedly that it's "so wrong" and will cause x, y, and z problems(I get tested regularly and those problems never show up) even though it works very well for my situation.

      I think it's a little weird to be so hung up on other peoples choices.
      “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
      ~Friedrich Nietzsche
      And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
        I know you know better. It seems like you're confusing Primal or Paleo with Atkins here. I think every informed person on this forum would agree that for non-Celiac sufferers, PUFAs are enemy #1.
        Yeah, keyword. I think nuts and seeds and chicken and pork and avocado dominate the Paleo internet world. Almost every cookbook and Paleo food blog or food photo gallery is saturated (no pun intended) with high PUFA foods. At least half of the individual menus I see posted in here include chicken breast/thigh and/or avocado every. single. day. Displacing chicken coated in almond flour and then fried in more oil with 10-12 pieces of fruit and a potato is much healthier. I'm sure you agree with this, but I don't think there's nearly enough emphasis put on avoiding PUFAs and tapping into nutrient-dense foods in this community; grains, namely wheat is largely enemy #1. I think the new conversation needs to be about avoiding a high intake of PUFAs and then, being more honest about grains. There's 100 different types and they're not all "poisonous." I don't think white rice should be implicated in gluten's potential crimes against the gut.

        I am willing to bet that the SPAD (standard Paleo/Primal diet) is chronically low in many minerals and nutrients. With the combination of low-carb, low-calorie, and high-PUFA foods being so popular, I see a lot of short-comings in the SPAD. This doesn't mean everyone of course, there are many who know what's up, but I see a lot of the same daily foods mentioned and wonder if many people are tracking their daily food to ensure they are covering their bases. Even days when I eat offal, bivalves, and 10+ servings of fruit and veggies I come up short on things.
        Last edited by j3nn; 04-28-2013, 03:56 PM.
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        “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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        • #34
          I gotta disagree with you guys on the PUFA. I'd rather eat roasted almonds than a brick of tofu. Just imo.
          My chocolatey Primal journey

          Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

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          • #35
            Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
            I gotta disagree with you guys on the PUFA. I'd rather eat roasted almonds than a brick of tofu. Just imo.
            Gross. lol Surely almonds are better than soy anything. I don't think anyone would suggest that swap. Grass-fed cheese over chicken breast or bacon, though? Definitely.
            | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

            “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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            • #36
              The only reason i am here is because people keep popping up woth issues and noone else will give them sound advice. Seriously if more people were more flexible with their recommendations and didnt avoid the obvious issue that carbohydrates might actually be the answer then i probably wouldnt post here at all. I feel bad when someone complains of hypothyroid or digestive issues and everyone gives them all these obscure recomendations and dances around the real issues. It is a lower carb primal forums so i guess that should be expected, but still.

              I have no problem whatsoever with the way Neck and Rich eat and im sure a few others follow a very healthy lower carb diet. But for every one if them there is 100 who have no clue and think as long as it is fat it is good and carbs are the devil, etc.

              Rich, i think fruit is about the perfect food, second would be eggs and dairy. So yes i think it is a vombo of what they choose to eat and what they avoid.

              Most people have no clue how to eat primal successfully. This is why so many have issues or give up entirely. Even Sissons sound advice gets lost in the mountains of low carb dogma. Dont know if anyone read but Sisson himself says he does not eat much meat anymore and eats more plant matter.

              As for the right way to low carb, high saturated/unsaturated ratio, not excessive protein, carb refeeds. Pretty simple but most miss all three rules.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by j3nn View Post
                Gross. lol Surely almonds are better than soy anything. I don't think anyone would suggest that swap. Grass-fed cheese over chicken breast or bacon, though? Definitely.
                As a dietary staple for someone who tolerates lactose, agree 100%. In fact, one of the main benefits of getting the pastured bacon I spend way too much money for (and only eat 1x/week max) is that it has much lower PUFA content than the store bought stuff. You can tell just by feeling it. It's firm and hard, not soggy and floppy.
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #38
                  Newbie here- what does PUFA stand for? Thanks!
                  *Sara*

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                  • #39
                    PolyUnsaturated Fatty Acids.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                      PolyUnsaturated Fatty Acids.
                      thanks! now off to google what that means lol
                      *Sara*

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                      • #41
                        Zach, where did you read about Mark S now eating less meat and more plant? I would like to read that article...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by j3nn View Post
                          Even days when I eat offal, bivalves, and 10+ servings of fruit and veggies I come up short on things.
                          Then your overestimating your need for those nutrients or your not accounting for bioavailability. Not to mention you should track nutrients for at least a week-month for real value. There is a reason the body has reserves of these things. Your not suppose to have to hit your 100% on each and every day.

                          Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                          I gotta disagree with you guys on the PUFA. I'd rather eat roasted almonds than a brick of tofu. Just imo.
                          +1

                          PUFA is the new devil in place of carbs. We can recognize healthy carbs, but not healthy PUFA. Honestly this perplexes the shit out of me cause it comes most frequently from the high carb people who should recognize that this is the exact same logic they have been railing against when carbs where spoken of. There are plenty of "black swans" (as Rich used) for higher PUFA consumption in healthy populations, the difference is that PUFA comes from nuts, seeds, pork and fish....not rancid seed oils.

                          PUFA is the new "carb".

                          All things in context you know. Free range, organic fed, no pesticides, and fresh = no problem. The problem is lots of nuts and seeds in the US don't have those sort of pedigrees. Plenty of pork, fowl, and fish do though.

                          Actually J3nn I would say I'm in the minority with my statement above. I see most paleo/primal peeps scared to death of all forms of PUFA these days.

                          PKlopp made a very interesting observation that most studies that implicate PUFA go to rather extreme conditions (much like the have to to implicate saturated fat) to come up with damning evidence.
                          Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-28-2013, 05:04 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Coconut View Post
                            Zach, where did you read about Mark S now eating less meat and more plant? I would like to read that article...
                            It was actually less protein and more fat

                            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-m...#axzz2RhLgF8Kk

                            Actually I guess he says both. He's eating smaller portions of meat, but he's also sticking to fattier more gelatinous cuts than he use to.
                            Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-28-2013, 04:58 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              Then your overestimating your need for those nutrients or your not accounting for bioavailability. Not to mention you should track nutrients for at least a week-month for real value. There is a reason the body has reserves of these things. Your not suppose to have to hit your 100% on each and every day.
                              I was basing this on the RDA and I believe the RDA is probably conservative (and wrong) on several key things. I know personally I need certain nutrients and minerals in abundance due to my rapid depletion of them through activity and from medication side effects; most women could probably benefit from more magnesium and potassium than is generally recommended. It should be individual, but if you're chronically low on generic guidelines, that raises a flag for me. And yes, I know that one day isn't a clear picture, severals days and weeks matters most, but for people who eat many of the same foods every day, there's going to be a chronic deficit of nutrients if those foods don't meet requirements in a certain time frame. My focus these days isn't so much on types of foods as it is on getting minerals and nutrients, or at least eating foods that provide the greatest chance of bioavailability.
                              | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                              “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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                              • #45
                                Thanks Neckhammer...

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