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  • #76
    Originally posted by Nstocks View Post
    Ha, I guess I've gone to extreme in believing that everyone should eat less than 150g carbs per day. I always got the Paleo impression that unless you are at crossfit 4 times a week, you shouldn't be eating carbs! That's was quite sad to me.

    I'm really excited about not eating vegetables. Don't get me wrong, I love them but they aren't working very well for me and fruit will be a refreshing change.
    Omg.... listen, under 150g of carbs a day is not "extreme". I would say most people who eat potato's and fruit to satiety STILL end up under that just by avoiding refined sugar, juices, and grains. Your talking 4-5 pieces of fruit or 3-4 potato's a day to hit 150g. Seriously there is nothing extreme about that. With your issues you may consider the GAPS protocol. I know zachs pimping the Pete approach and your kind of digging it, but I think Robb Wolfe and even Mark are quite moderate in their approach. Your not going to end up insulin resistant via low carb eating unless you are restricting to under 50g/day and even at that it's a different sort of resistance and yes it's nonpathogenic. But, at 100-150g this isn't an issue anyhow. Ask a number of posters who eat in this range. Ok, back to you two hashing some of this out.

    BTW, I agree that your focus should be meat, eggs, fruit and tubers.... but I would prefer my order . That and you may even go SCD (specific carbohydrate diet) for a while and eliminate the tubers for the beginning. If your dealing with gut dysbiosis then the long chain starches can actually contribute by hanging around and feeding the bad bacteria. Here is a link to some info on that The Stages of SCD

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      Omg.... listen, under 150g of carbs a day is not "extreme". I would say most people who eat potato's and fruit to satiety STILL end up under that just by avoiding refined sugar, juices, and grains. Your talking 4-5 pieces of fruit or 3-4 potato's a day to hit 150g. Seriously there is nothing extreme about that. With your issues you may consider the GAPS protocol. I know zachs pimping the Pete approach and your kind of digging it, but I think Robb Wolfe and even Mark are quite moderate in their approach. Your not going to end up insulin resistant via low carb eating unless you are restricting to under 50g/day and even at that it's a different sort of resistance and yes it's nonpathogenic. But, at 100-150g this isn't an issue anyhow. Ask a number of posters who eat in this range. Ok, back to you two hashing some of this out.

      BTW, I agree that your focus should be meat, eggs, fruit and tubers.... but I would prefer my order . That and you may even go SCD (specific carbohydrate diet) for a while and eliminate the tubers for the beginning. If your dealing with gut dysbiosis then the long chain starches can actually contribute by hanging around and feeding the bad bacteria. Here is a link to some info on that The Stages of SCD
      I been over thinking the amount of carbs in fruit and sweet potato by quite a lot. For example. orange juice is 10g carbs per 100ml, pineapple by weight is the same. This is less than sweet potato which although has very little sugar, it has twice the carbs at 20g per 100g.

      The GAPS diet for some reason scares me. I don't know why, I don't even know that much about it other than it's eggs and a lot of homemade soups. It also boasts sauerkraut and other ferments.

      Looking at the intro to SCD, it appears that I can have grape juice, apple cider vinegar, carrots (cooked for 4 hours!), meat and eggs. Is that right? That's very limiting to me. I see that the intro diet is anything from 2-5 days so that's not as bad as I thought. After this period, would I see how I feel and move to stage one of SCD?

      Today was shopping day, but my Mum lost the list. I now have the grapes, courgette and orange juice so I'm going to have to go and shop for myself anyway. I'm also looking for a 'diet' (short time to heal) that require little effort and little stress. I hate worrying about having to boil a pot for hours and things like that. Although I'm at home most of the time, I don't want that time to be completely consumed by cooking more 'diet foods'. this is why I love the idea of mostly fruit because I don't really have to do anything for once. (again being the only one in the household to cook every meal from scratch)

      EDIT: Just for some perspective, what do people on a typical SAD diet eat, carb wise? I'm only in the moderate/low carb community so I know what that is, but I've no idea what typical grain/refined sugar crab intake is. Over 600g?
      Last edited by Nstocks; 04-27-2013, 04:05 AM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Nstocks View Post
        EDIT: Just for some perspective, what do people on a typical SAD diet eat, carb wise? I'm only in the moderate/low carb community so I know what that is, but I've no idea what typical grain/refined sugar crab intake is. Over 600g?
        Bread - lots of bread. Cereal. Pasta. Crackers. Chips. Pastries. Fast food.

        And that's just in one day...haha. It's horrifying, when you go back and look at what people eat once you don't eat any of that.

        I am putting in my opinion for the higher carb approach and adding some variety of vegetables and fruits. And fat. I found that when I went fully primal, I was eating ALL thyroid inhibiting foods and went from feeling good (not awesome) to feeling awful... dark circles under my eyes, super bloated face and neck, dry pasty skin and hair.. had a low thyroid T4 number for the first time and also Vitamin D tested very low. I added some more vegetables which were NOT cruciferous, went fanatical on checking for hidden soy, and tried to do more thyroid stimulating things.. also spend enough time in the sun every day (easy for me in South Carolina!) but if not I supplement decently with D3. After a couple of weeks the bloat that dropped was amazing.. water pouring off of me it felt like. Weird. Oh, I also salt liberally when I cook now, with iodized sea salt, as the low carb approach and lack of processed foods reduces salt, and lack of iodine can inhibit thyroid as well.

        It's worth a try to make a change.. as you said your approach hasn't changed as much as you'd like. You can always go back to your WOE but at least you'll know you tried something else! Good luck! I was interested to read everyone's ideas in this thread.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Sooze View Post
          Bread - lots of bread. Cereal. Pasta. Crackers. Chips. Pastries. Fast food.

          And that's just in one day...haha. It's horrifying, when you go back and look at what people eat once you don't eat any of that.

          I am putting in my opinion for the higher carb approach and adding some variety of vegetables and fruits. And fat. I found that when I went fully primal, I was eating ALL thyroid inhibiting foods and went from feeling good (not awesome) to feeling awful... dark circles under my eyes, super bloated face and neck, dry pasty skin and hair.. had a low thyroid T4 number for the first time and also Vitamin D tested very low. I added some more vegetables which were NOT cruciferous, went fanatical on checking for hidden soy, and tried to do more thyroid stimulating things.. also spend enough time in the sun every day (easy for me in South Carolina!) but if not I supplement decently with D3. After a couple of weeks the bloat that dropped was amazing.. water pouring off of me it felt like. Weird. Oh, I also salt liberally when I cook now, with iodized sea salt, as the low carb approach and lack of processed foods reduces salt, and lack of iodine can inhibit thyroid as well.

          It's worth a try to make a change.. as you said your approach hasn't changed as much as you'd like. You can always go back to your WOE but at least you'll know you tried something else! Good luck! I was interested to read everyone's ideas in this thread.
          BREAD!!! Oh my, my Dad lives of the stuff. It really is horrific how much he eats. Then if he sees me eating real food, he's like "Oh I guess I'll just have a sandwich and cereals". He doesn't mean to make me feel bad for not cooking for him, but he tends to think his choices are 'just there' and he's too lazy to prepare and cook. He loves those foods anyway so he's not bothered.

          I think I'm really going to experiment with more foods. I plan on doing the SCD intro diet with grape juice, carrots, eggs and meats. I'll either use butter or make ghee instead of coconut oil.

          I'll see how I feel and then continue with the SCD diet if it works well. There seems to be a good structure for me as opposed to just eating a bunch of foods which are in no order.

          Thanks for all of the help everyone! I'm excited to change things up.

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          • #80
            Omg, lol. Way to fuck him up again, Neck!

            Dude your just trading in one orthorexic elimination diet for another. Elimination diets do not work because the problem is not a certain food to avoid, the problem is you are ruining your health by eliminating foods!

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            • #81
              What peats a pretty anti-starch the gut should be sterile sorta guy. Thats the only difference in the beginning from what I can tell. Other than relying heavily on egg yolks and bone broth to heal the gut and get easily assimilated nutrition. The good thing about SCD is its progressive. Yes its an elimination diet, but it removes EVERYTHING....then adds stuff back in systematically, and thats what the OP is missing. He's been haphazardly removing and reintroducing without much rhyme or reason. This is an elimination diet with the full intent of reintroducing all the normal food items over time.

              OK so I just read the OP's first post again and it looks like primary complaints for this 22 yo male are mild acne, bloating, and some dark circles under his eyes. So yeah, these could all be associated a bit with orthorexia....except the bloating. That seems to be something he should be able to care for with HCL tabs if some self testing makes it seem necessary. That and a good probiotic may go far.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Zach View Post
                Dude your just trading in one orthorexic elimination diet for another. Elimination diets do not work because the problem is not a certain food to avoid, the problem is you are ruining your health by eliminating foods!
                Nstocks, you seem really stressed out. How was your health before all of this? Did you have problems with bloating then? Why did you go Primal?

                If you were fine to begin with then I think you should eat all real foods (except maybe wheat). Just reintroduce slowly.

                I am Zach's nodding-in-agreement friend.
                "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                - Ray Peat

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                • #83
                  At the end of the day, isnt the final message (nay the only message) "everything in moderation"? No dependance on fat, carbs or proteins, just eat a varied diet to your taste and goals and let it all fall into place. Aslong as its primal a.k.a whole natural food, and not in an abundance, you should be fine. I get carried away too with the veggies and sometimes fat. And i did have a fear of carbs aswell, for practically the same reasons as you. In fact your whole story resonates with me because there are quiet a few similarities, and in all honesty neither of us is actually healthy because the symptoms you explain aren't normal are they?

                  Ive increased my carbs and lowered fat and do feel better. I still overdose a bit on veggies and need to break my meals up into 3 rather than 2 that i go with these days, buts more because of my poor digestive system than anything.

                  I think some gut dysbiosis would be at play, i know for me it definitley is because of a track history with antibioitics and consuming foods i was intolerant to as a youngster but never really knowing about them.

                  I do have to be wary of fodmaps too, diagnosed with fructose malabsorption, theres a test you can do, so whilst fruit is being recommended in here, you might want to check on your portion sizes.
                  I think varied diet, good eating practices and active lifestyle including social life are all necessary solutions.

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                  • #84
                    I agree that willy nilly elimination diets are bad. They won't really tell you anything. Trust me.
                    I agree that SCD is beneficial for figuring out a few things that really bother you while you try to figure out what's really going on.

                    YogaBare is not sure if Zach is her dream or if she is Zach's dream.
                    Is it weird in here, or is it just me?

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                    • #85
                      Here's the problem... I frequently see the orthorexic diagnosis thrown around as a gateway diagnosis for "so eat more sugar". Or, "maybe this paleo thing is too strict for you" I don't agree with either statement in terms of treating someone with an actual orthorexic disorder. But, if the OP thinks this is sounding like him then I would recommend reading this blog and some of the links from there Evolutionary Psychiatry: Orthorexia in the Paleo/Primal Community

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                      • #86
                        Neck, the only reason i give the advice i do is because i have seen it work many times on individuals just like him. This is a 22 year old male whi felt better before eating healthy and is wasting his prime years of life trying to regain health with faulty principles.

                        Its totally up to him to decide whats next, the only reason i care is because i was just like him at that age and i wish i had listened to the people who were telling me that i was insane for doing such an extreme diet. I know primal is not inherently extreme but you combine that with the other low carb gurus and fear mongering of sugar and it becomes very extreme very fast and all of a sudden you wonder how your health got so bad and what went wrong.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by ombat View Post
                          YogaBare is not sure if Zach is her dream or if she is Zach's dream.
                          Zach is pure consciousness and I am but his echo-cho-cho-cho-cho...
                          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                          - Ray Peat

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by zizou View Post
                            At the end of the day, isnt the final message (nay the only message) "everything in moderation"?
                            Personally I think that the "everything in moderation" is something that should apply after you eliminate the things that are damaging you, not instead of asking questions about what might be causing problems.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                              Zach is pure consciousness and I am but his echo-cho-cho-cho-cho...
                              Awesome.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                                Personally I think that the "everything in moderation" is something that should apply after you eliminate the things that are damaging you, not instead of asking questions about what might be causing problems.
                                This. Some things can cause damage even in the smallest amounts.

                                Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                                Zach is pure consciousness and I am but his echo-cho-cho-cho-cho...
                                Spooky.
                                Is it weird in here, or is it just me?

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