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Who's joining me? Very Low Carb - Low Protein - Support Thread

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  • #91
    I don't have my book with me to fish out the citations, but in the original PHD they link low insulin diets to a lot of good things. Improved immune response, longevity, reduced risk of alzheimers are a few I remember off the top of my head. Of course I could use some google to argue my point, but I thought by now everyone just knew this stuff. This is something that you can manipulate with meal timing as well and why eating windows and IF'ing tend to show some of the same general positive effects as low carb diets. The mechanisms are there.

    Being anabolic all the time (insulin) may be great for putting on weight, but its not exactly been shown to improve health or longevity.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-27-2013, 07:40 PM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      I don't have my book with me to fish out the citations, but in the original PHD they link low insulin diets to a lot of good things. Improved immune response, longevity, reduced risk of alzheimers are a few I remember off the top of my head. Of course I could use some google to argue my point, but I thought by now everyone just knew this stuff. This is something that you can manipulate with meal timing as well and why eating windows and IF'ing tend to show some of the same general positive effects as low carb diets. The mechanisms are there.
      Do they really link low-insulin diets with good things? Or is it yet another baseless confounding factor? A "low insulin" diet would also be a diet free of grains, legumes, most processed foods (cake, cookies, crackers, frozen pasta dinners, etc) which also tend to be laced with seed oils, and due to limited menu options, probably more home-cooked meals. They also tend to be richer in meats and vegetables, which everyone seems to agree is healthier.

      All these anti-carbohydrate epidemiology studies never seem to have a control group where they eat very lean meats, fruits and tubers with no grains or seed/fish oils. I will take a diet of lean red meat, dairy, coconut, fruit and tubers any day with the majority of calories coming from carbohydrate than any other diet.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        What makes people fat is being sedentary and overeating.
        The problem is that people who are overweight are lazy gluttons. End of story. Proven by ChocoTaco.

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        • #94
          Far as low carb being less effective then regular carb for lean mass and weight loss that well here you go.... heck your the one who pointed us towards a trial showing ketogenic dieters fared at least as well if not better than non-keto dieters eating the same calories and protein.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
            All these anti-carbohydrate epidemiology studies never seem to have a control group where they eat very lean meats, fruits and tubers with no grains or seed/fish oils. I will take a diet of lean red meat, dairy, coconut, fruit and tubers any day with the majority of calories coming from carbohydrate than any other diet.

            Uhh..... well yeah, by definition most epidemiological study doesn't contain a control group. Take what you want... but there is a great deal of evidence that your diet isn't the only optimal path.

            I'll take a diet of high animal fat meat, bones, and organs augmented with whatever plants add taste and pleasure.
            Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-27-2013, 07:55 PM.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
              The problem is that people who are overweight are lazy gluttons. End of story. Proven by ChocoTaco.
              Huh? Inactivity is generally a side effect of obesity, not the other way around. People who are overweight are usually deficient in fat soluble vitamins and have a slow thyroid from said deficiency. When people lean out they typically want to get up and move. I feel like shit if I sit for more than an hour. I need to get up and move.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                Far as low carb being less effective then regular carb for lean mass and weight loss that well here you go.... heck your the one who pointed us towards a trial showing ketogenic dieters fared at least as well if not better than non-keto dieters eating the same calories and protein.
                It was the other way around. The people that ate around half their calories from carbs on the same calories outperformed the ketogenic group, though it wasn't statistically significant. The keto group had a higher protein intake as well, which is interesting. The end result is that CICO is absolutely true in every event, but a diet that promotes a robust thyroid is going to improve the 'CO' part of the equation.
                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  Uhh..... well yeah, by definition most epidemiological study doesn't contain a control group. Take what you want... but there is a great deal of evidence that your diet isn't the only optimal path.

                  I'll take a diet of high animal fat meat, bones, and organs augmented with whatever plants add taste and pleasure.
                  I don't think there is an optimal path, but I am very confident that low carbohydrate diets are absolutely not optimal and that carbohydrate is a superior fuel than fat.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I'll be monitoring my allergies today. Started a bit of sneezing in the morning. So already it's a bit more allergenic than yesterday.

                    This morning I began the day with butter tea augmented with coconut oil and MCT oil. Dr. Bronner's (of soap fame) sells a very high quality coconut oil that I bought at Whole Paycheck yesterday and I'm using that along with grassfed butter and a bit of MCT Oil. I think starting the day this way is a key to making the whole day a lot better in terms of eating instead of jumping to full on protein right away, which made me hungry yesterday.

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                    • guys i was wondering why u had stated to consume alot of salt, is it something needed when ur going very low carb?
                      and ooo i still cant seem to keep protein down so much but i have lowered it by 20g i think i will try to lower it more but anyways i weight lift does that make a diffrence? (im a girl and protein is at 110g while lifting ,80g the days im not)

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                      • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        It was the other way around. The people that ate around half their calories from carbs on the same calories outperformed the ketogenic group, though it wasn't statistically significant. The keto group had a higher protein intake as well, which is interesting. The end result is that CICO is absolutely true in every event, but a diet that promotes a robust thyroid is going to improve the 'CO' part of the equation.
                        You do realize this was a study was done by Barry Sears and company (zone diet inventor), so the write up is a bit biased. You thought it was the other way around, but the numbers don't pan out that way when you account for loss of lean mass as water weight and hydration along with the bioimpedence device problems in measuring such.

                        Anyway even with all those (and maybe because of all those), there was "no significant difference" in fat loss between the groups. We already did all the numbers on another thread so rather than muck up a support thread lets just leave it.

                        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        I don't think there is an optimal path, but I am very confident that low carbohydrate diets are absolutely not optimal and that carbohydrate is a superior fuel than fat.
                        Your "very confident" in whatever your current flavor of the month is. Its been a pattern. People doing and having success in a vastly different way than you does not invalidate what your working towards for yourself.

                        We've been over this myth that carbohydrates are somehow superior before.... the ATP and delta G don't lie.

                        1 molecule of glucose produces:
                        ATPs produced from complete oxidation: 30-32 (assuming 2.5 ATP from NADH+ and 1.5 ATP from FADH2)

                        1 molecule of palmitate produces:
                        ATPs produced from complete oxidation: 108 (assuming 2.5 ATP from NADH+ and 1.5 ATP from FADH2)


                        "The mean calculated ∆G of cytosolic ATP hydrolysis was:

                        ∆G ATP = -57.6 kJ/mol for ketones
                        ∆G ATP = -56.6 kJ/mol for glucose

                        Concluding from this data we see that ketones cause a decrease in the potential between the mitochondria and cytosol (ie. Emito/cyto) while increasing the ∆G of ATP hydrolisis, paralleled by the increase in ∆G QH2/NAD+ and ∆G[H+]. Increased efficiency. " - Lucas Tafur: Bioenergetics

                        Omni offered some more right here http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83420.html

                        And of course there is some info out there on carbs, but this is a keto support thread I'm being supportive
                        Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-28-2013, 07:48 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by egyption grok View Post
                          guys i was wondering why u had stated to consume alot of salt, is it something needed when ur going very low carb?
                          and ooo i still cant seem to keep protein down so much but i have lowered it by 20g i think i will try to lower it more but anyways i weight lift does that make a diffrence? (im a girl and protein is at 110g while lifting ,80g the days im not)
                          You need the extra salt because when eating VLC, your body flushes fluids much faster and easier. Salt helps to keep the body hydrated and keep electrolytes in balance.

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                          • Hi all, doing well over here, day 5!!!! So far feeling the carb flu a bit, but overall not that bad, and doing well staying in my calorie goal. How is everyone else doing?

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                            • Ate a very light dinner last night, beef the size of about a deck of cards and some cooked kale with maybe a clove of garlic. Wasn't really hungry after that, although this is about 1/5th of what I used to eat.

                              Last night I practiced some dancing with my wife and my legs and feet got tired pretty quickly. I think I am consuming enough salt but maybe not. I take 1/2 teaspoonful of fine sea salt in the morning, and then sometimes again during the day, and also salt my food liberally.

                              Early this morning, I woke up with a toe cramp. I get these occasionally and I know just what to do. I went downstairs, took a bit of potassium chloride (in the form of NoSalt which you buy in the grocery section for idiots trying to lower their sodium consumption on advice of their doctor, lol) and in a minute, cramps gone. A surefire cure.

                              Today I'm feeling good, still feeling a bit of brain strangeness that hasn't gone away. I would say that it's a paradox. I feel somewhat like I'm underwater. But I am actually sharper when it comes to recalling memories or dealing with business issues. So although I feel like I'm somewhat underwater, I'm actually sharper.

                              Allergies still better than they've been recently but not quite as good as yesterday. Just finished a cup of bone broth with plenty of beef fat on top that I made last night with 3 hours in the pressure cooker.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                                Sometimes it seems like the "solution" we are being offered is that we should choose to become young, healthy athletic males.
                                Heh!
                                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                                CICO deals with weight. This has nothing to do with body composition. Starvation dieting will suck more mass from your lean tissue than your fat, and overeating poor quality fats will tend to store more of those calories as body fat than lean mass. Fats in general are more likely to store as body fat in a caloric surplus than carbohydrate because it is a less anabolic fuel source. Insulin is very anabolic, which is why you'll see bodybuilders looking to gain weight overconsuming protein and carbohydrate, not fat. Fat in large surpluses just tends to...make you...fat.
                                Who is advocating starvation? Who is advocating large surpluses of poor quality fats? <chirping crickets> You keep saying "Bodybuilders do it this way" as if that proves it's the best. Bodybuilders are some of the un-healthiest people around (I know, I used to be one.)
                                Originally posted by emmie View Post
                                "Insulin has nothing to do with fat gain" is totally false, although it may be more applicable to those of use with disordered insulin responses. For us, insulin is a major factor in weight gain--or at least our body's release of too much insulin.
                                For me, and others like me, insulin definitely has 'something' to do with fat gain.
                                I am not advocating my WOE for anyone else, but please don't make blanket statements as though we all fit some absolute standards.
                                Choco likes his blankies. They make him feel secure.
                                Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                                The problem is that people who are overweight are lazy gluttons. End of story. Proven by ChocoTaco.
                                Yep, get moving you lazy glutton!
                                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                                People who are overweight are usually deficient in fat soluble vitamins and have a slow thyroid from said deficiency.
                                So, people here are supplementing that deficiency with more fat. Why do you find this so hard to understand?
                                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                                I am very confident that low carbohydrate diets are absolutely not optimal and that carbohydrate is a superior fuel than fat.
                                That's nice. FOR YOU.
                                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                Your "very confident" in whatever your current flavor of the month is. Its been a pattern. People doing and having success in a vastly different way than you does not invalidate what your working towards for yourself.

                                We've been over this myth that carbohydrates are somehow superior before.... the ATP and delta G don't lie.
                                1 molecule of glucose produces:
                                ATPs produced from complete oxidation: 30-32 (assuming 2.5 ATP from NADH+ and 1.5 ATP from FADH2)
                                1 molecule of palmitate produces:
                                ATPs produced from complete oxidation: 108 (assuming 2.5 ATP from NADH+ and 1.5 ATP from FADH2)
                                "The mean calculated ∆G of cytosolic ATP hydrolysis was:
                                ∆G ATP = -57.6 kJ/mol for ketones
                                ∆G ATP = -56.6 kJ/mol for glucose
                                Concluding from this data we see that ketones cause a decrease in the potential between the mitochondria and cytosol (ie. Emito/cyto) while increasing the ∆G of ATP hydrolisis, paralleled by the increase in ∆G QH2/NAD+ and ∆G[H+]. Increased efficiency. " - Lucas Tafur: Bioenergetics

                                Omni offered some more right here http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83420.html

                                And of course there is some info out there on carbs, but this is a keto support thread I'm being supportive
                                I adore you NH. Deal with it Choco. The facts don't fit your preconceptions.

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