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  • #76
    Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
    What I'm doing now is keeping warm, being with people who love me, channelling my emotions and thoughts into my journal, doing my yoga, taking care of my body, continuing to educate myself. I happen to have a job I love, so that side is cool too. I'm not into meds (I don't even l like taking supps!) so unless I have to, I wont be taking them. To be honest, if I find out I do have a thyroid condition I'll be very relived, cos at least this is something concrete that would explain why I'm so depressed.
    Just jumping this conversation over from hypo thread.
    I just noticed the quote in your signature.
    "Sometimes eating the wrong food with the right attitude is a better choice than eating the right food with the wrong attitude... That’s how powerful the mind and the heart can be in the healing process."
    - Chris Kresser
    That's where I've come to as well,
    Depression is a real downer, parden the pun, there's a few individuals around me punching it out with the "Black Dog" and I had routine bout's that I just thought were normal, I'm pretty convinced mine were related to Grain carbs/gluten et al, particularly as I lapsed a bit diet wise before the xmas and invariably found myself in the Black hole for 2 weeks, the connection was too strong to ignore.
    There is no denying that your cholesterol is high, but irrespective of that cholesterol it self is nothing but good, the question is why your body feels the need to have high cholesterol, more than likely we are talking system wide repairs. I can envisage a situation with your past process that could have precipitated this, fighting with the ED, enforcing veganism, low carb etc. whatever we do to our body it will try to cope in the best way it can, going from Veganism to VLC Paleo is paramount to jumping from the frying pan into the fire, so your body will take drastic action to defend itself.
    Outside of the elements we aren't aware of, we do know that your body was not fat adapted, and to get the supply of glucose your body was used to you would have had to have had a massive ramping up of gluconeogenesis along with a number of other hormonal adjustments to lower glucose demand, metabplic downregulation.
    That's not to say that VLC is not right for you, just means your body needs time to adjust before you can know that answer.
    My tastes have been gradually changing towards higher fat, and so have my partners but not as quickly for her, it's been well over 12 months now for us and we are only at the moderate carb level. Pushing back a spoonfull of coconut oil like medicine is completely different to savouring it with lip smacking goodness, when you get a taste for fat, then you'll know your body is getting fat adapted and is looking for more.
    The only thing that I would be wary of is the refined sugars and other sweeteners, they are concentrated and most of us have a taste for them, it's an ancestral taste urge, but they weren't on the shelf, so if you want a big spoon of honey go climb a 60" tree first.
    The journal is great, my partner has been keeping a symptoms journal where she notes diet and bodily symptoms as well as her twite dailt temp and pulse rate, she's got 3 years of records now, the other aspect of this is when she notes down daily changes temps etc before bed, she is focussing on her body and how it is feeling, this directed awareness is getting her more tuned with her body and also setting the appropriate mindset for healing before going to sleep which is when much of the work is done.

    Get more testing to determine where your issues lie, but remember most of the results will just be clues and not the actual cause.
    Have you had Leptin tested?
    It'll probably be a pay for, but when all is said and done and everything else is in place, getting leptin right will be a strong indicator of good health.
    My partner had hers tested, she was high, just out of range, we will do it annually as a marker of overall healing.
    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Awilda2are
      I just got back from my doc, where I was getting my first blood test results since being veggie / vegan. I got Cholesterol, Thyroid and Ferretin checked
      So nice to see a spam bot that takes care of its health!
      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

      - Ray Peat

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Omni View Post
        There is no denying that your cholesterol is high, but irrespective of that cholesterol it self is nothing but good, the question is why your body feels the need to have high cholesterol, more than likely we are talking system wide repairs. I can envisage a situation with your past process that could have precipitated this, fighting with the ED, enforcing veganism, low carb etc. whatever we do to our body it will try to cope in the best way it can, going from Veganism to VLC Paleo is paramount to jumping from the frying pan into the fire, so your body will take drastic action to defend itself.
        Thanks for replying Omni That actually makes total sense, and I remember at one point you advised someone to make gradual changes in their diet instead of jumping off the deep end. I've been jerking my body around along, kind of thinking that I could shock it into compliance, but instead it's gone haywire. Even now I think it's still in shock from being fed regularly instead of being in the binge-stave cycle.

        It's a relief to keep thinking that cholesterol is not the cause of heart attacks, and that cholesterol in itself is a good thing. The fact that it's so high just means there is some other health issue I need to look into.

        Outside of the elements we aren't aware of, we do know that your body was not fat adapted, and to get the supply of glucose your body was used to you would have had to have had a massive ramping up of gluconeogenesis along with a number of other hormonal adjustments to lower glucose demand, metabplic downregulation.
        That's not to say that VLC is not right for you, just means your body needs time to adjust before you can know that answer.
        My tastes have been gradually changing towards higher fat, and so have my partners but not as quickly for her, it's been well over 12 months now for us and we are only at the moderate carb level. Pushing back a spoonfull of coconut oil like medicine is completely different to savouring it with lip smacking goodness, when you get a taste for fat, then you'll know your body is getting fat adapted and is looking for more.
        Actually, I said I wasn't going to eat spoons of coconut oils anymore because I n longer want to eat things trying to hack my body (ramping up metabolism etc). I actually love the taste of coconut oil!

        The only thing that I would be wary of is the refined sugars and other sweeteners, they are concentrated and most of us have a taste for them, it's an ancestral taste urge, but they weren't on the shelf, so if you want a big spoon of honey go climb a 60" tree first.
        Well, I got some flac on this thread already because I don't believe sugar is harmful. My intake at the moment is probably an average of two tea spoons a day, though I go weeks without any. I eat sugar free gum a few times a week, but other than that I fall heavily within the Primal parameters. I've had chocolate maybe three times in the last three months and I had a few beers on Sat night. I don't set aside "cheat meals" like a lot of people do. I have such a bad reaction to gluten and processed foods (mentally and physically) that it's not worth it.

        Get more testing to determine where your issues lie, but remember most of the results will just be clues and not the actual cause.
        Have you had Leptin tested?
        It's probably a good idea to get a hormonal panel done. I think this is free with our health care here as well: it's just a matter of convincing the docs that you need it.

        I'm meeting a new doc today, so we'll see what he says.

        Thanks so much for your input!
        Last edited by YogaBare; 04-22-2013, 01:40 AM.
        "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

        In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

        - Ray Peat

        Comment


        • #79
          I fully agree on the sugar, in itself it is not harmful, it's in just about all the foods we eat, even meat,
          the danger just lies in the volumes of it that we can consume when it is within easy reach.

          Sugar is a comfort food and that's fine now and then, but regular consumption in large volumes results in an emotional rollercoaster situation, it can creep in quite inscidiously if we are not aware of it.

          I don't like artificial sweeteners, even stevia, so I do use sugar and honey when I do deserts, or in coffee and much the same probably get a few teaspoons a day on average.
          As far as been Primal, in moderation I don't think there is an issue.

          Misunderstood the coconut oil comment, got it now.
          As far as fat adapting goes, I think the issue is much more complex, someone in good health may take 3-6months IMO, sure you can ram through the Low carb flu in 2-3 weeks and declare you feel better, hence you are fat adapted, but if anyone actually did some serious monitoring you'd find that there was continuous progress for quite a few months afterward, the low carb flu stage is just the minimum requirement, it doesn't stop there.
          On the other hand if one is not healthy, then the body is working on limited resources, you are asking it to heal and at the same time revamp the entire system to use another primary fuel, all this takes energy and if you are also restricting total calories at the same time, there aint no way this is all going to happen.

          I've had a bit of a taste of it, particularly seeing my ability improve in the fasted state, my levels of activity haven't really changed that much over time, but over time but my endurance has improved significantly and I'd put that down to fat adaptation in the muscles particularly. I will go full Keto at some point in the future, I like the idea of doing keto cycling to keep both the fat and glucose machinery well lubricated, but for now just going with the flow.
          "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Omni View Post
            As far as fat adapting goes, I think the issue is much more complex, someone in good health may take 3-6months IMO, sure you can ram through the Low carb flu in 2-3 weeks and declare you feel better, hence you are fat adapted, but if anyone actually did some serious monitoring you'd find that there was continuous progress for quite a few months afterward, the low carb flu stage is just the minimum requirement, it doesn't stop there.
            On the other hand if one is not healthy, then the body is working on limited resources, you are asking it to heal and at the same time revamp the entire system to use another primary fuel, all this takes energy and if you are also restricting total calories at the same time, there aint no way this is all going to happen.

            I've had a bit of a taste of it, particularly seeing my ability improve in the fasted state, my levels of activity haven't really changed that much over time, but over time but my endurance has improved significantly and I'd put that down to fat adaptation in the muscles particularly. I will go full Keto at some point in the future, I like the idea of doing keto cycling to keep both the fat and glucose machinery well lubricated, but for now just going with the flow.
            You're a wise man Omni.

            I was definitely underfeeding myself for the first month on this woe, and then I started the binge-starve cycle. The binges were all primal, but then I would "Fast" for 48 hours afterwards, or at least IF, and I definitely noticed it getting easier and easier with time. I could also distinctly feel when I slipped into ketosis: there was this taste I would get in my mouth, and I'd enter this superfocused frame of mind, which I actually didn't like. I felt on edge.

            Out of interest, does your partner also eat VLC and how does this effect her thyroid issues?
            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

            - Ray Peat

            Comment


            • #81
              UPDATE:

              Just got back from my doctors surgery, where I visited the other doc who works there. He was MUCH sweeter than the other twat, and he is hypothyroid himself so he knew about the cholesterol - thyroid link. However, he's also a vegetarian (!) and told me to give up meat again.

              Back to thyroid: in the UK, the range for t4 is 10.5 - 25!!! Or 10-20 in some labs. This just seems insane - isn't the free T4 range 4.5 -11.5 mg/dL in America?

              Because my t4 falls within the "normal" range, he wouldn't let me get t3 tested. After much persuasion he agreed to test thyroid anti bodies and Vit D tomorrow in addition to the full lipid panel.

              Also got my ferritin back - it's 31 ng/mL, which is the lower side of normal.
              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

              - Ray Peat

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                UPDATE:

                Just got back from my doctors surgery, where I visited the other doc who works there. He was MUCH sweeter than the other twat, and he is hypothyroid himself so he knew about the cholesterol - thyroid link. However, he's also a vegetarian (!) and told me to give up meat again.

                Back to thyroid: in the UK, the range for t4 is 10.5 - 25!!! Or 10-20 in some labs. This just seems insane - isn't the free T4 range 4.5 -11.5 mg/dL in America?

                Because my t4 falls within the "normal" range, he wouldn't let me get t3 tested.
                After much persuasion he agreed to test thyroid anti bodies and Vit D tomorrow in addition to the full lipid panel.

                Also got my ferritin back - it's 31 ng/mL, which is the lower side of normal.
                It really doesn't matter what your T4 is, your T3 is the key - and if you are like me (and many, many others) and you are a lousy converter, you can have a decent T4 and a bottomed out T3 level, which basically means no usable thyroid hormone. Your free
                T3 is where the money is. It's concerning that this other doc apparently does not know this. I'd either demand he test it or move on to the next after finding one who will.
                Life is not a matter of having good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.

                - Robert Louis Stevenson

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by GoJenGo View Post
                  It really doesn't matter what your T4 is, your T3 is the key - and if you are like me (and many, many others) and you are a lousy converter, you can have a decent T4 and a bottomed out T3 level, which basically means no usable thyroid hormone. Your free
                  T3 is where the money is. It's concerning that this other doc apparently does not know this. I'd either demand he test it or move on to the next after finding one who will.
                  Cheers Jen. Unfortunately, because of the free health care, the docs have to follow protocol for testing. They cannot request a test for t3 unless t4 or TSh are out of bounds! Which is prob why the ranges for both these hormones is quite different in the UK to anywhere else: the government is trying to save money. Call me suspicious

                  I could get it all tested privately. I'm going to Poland in a couple of months and these things are a lot cheaper over there so I'll get whatever I need over there. Would be nice to know sooner rather than later though!
                  "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                  In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                  - Ray Peat

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Along with the thyroid issue, you may also want to get your liver enzymes tested. To me, a high TC suggests two things:

                    1.) Impaired thyroid function
                    2.) Impaired liver function

                    Either you're hypo/exhibiting symptoms of adrenal fatigue leading to high cholesterol, or your liver is dumping cholesterol into your blood for some reason. The seed oils originally were considered heart healthy because they cause a sudden drop in blood cholesterol, but in reality it's because they make your liver hoard cholesterol (which leads to other problems...like fatty liver).

                    Yes, high TC is a symptom of something else being wrong, I agree with that. But for the time being, it may be a smart idea to reduce fats. I don't think a high fat diet is ideal for most of us. I believe we burn sugar preferentially for a reason and our body doesn't like being glycogen depleted as it is indicative of famine and a natural stressor that can cause chronic disease overtime. It doesn't sound like you're a HFLC zombe Yoga, which is good, but it may be smart to reduce fats and high fructose fruits for leaner meats, starches and veggies.

                    - OR - that could be a bad plan if you're hypothyroid because fruits and coconut oil is the prescription for helping fix that!

                    So many options...
                    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 04-22-2013, 08:49 AM.
                    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I might consider a mix of what choco is talking about. That would be keep saturated fat high (good for liver), severely reduce fructose (good for liver), eat plenty of starch in the place of your fructose (refills liver glycogen just fine for thyroid hormone conversion).

                      Saturated fat has been shown to help improve liver function and even reverse fatty liver (which will raise blood cholesterol levels while healing).

                      The starch is perfectly capable of refilling liver glycogen and keeping your conversion rate healthy without overtaxing the liver as fructose does.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                        Cheers Jen. Unfortunately, because of the free health care, the docs have to follow protocol for testing. They cannot request a test for t3 unless t4 or TSh are out of bounds! Which is prob why the ranges for both these hormones is quite different in the UK to anywhere else: the government is trying to save money. Call me suspicious

                        I could get it all tested privately. I'm going to Poland in a couple of months and these things are a lot cheaper over there so I'll get whatever I need over there. Would be nice to know sooner rather than later though!
                        I wondered if that might be the case, and that is just ridiculous. If there is any way you can swing it to cover the cost, I'd test privately. The omission of the T3 level in the test you took renders it fairly useless, based on my (limited) understanding Either the author of the protocol has ZERO understanding of how the thyroid and thyroid hormones work, or they know EXACTLY what they're doing. My money is on the latter. What a great way for them to avoid having to treat thyroid issues! You're not alone in your suspicion.

                        I'm sorry, this has got to be frustrating as hell.
                        Life is not a matter of having good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.

                        - Robert Louis Stevenson

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          I might consider a mix of what choco is talking about. That would be keep saturated fat high (good for liver), severely reduce fructose (good for liver), eat plenty of starch in the place of your fructose (refills liver glycogen just fine for thyroid hormone conversion).

                          Saturated fat has been shown to help improve liver function and even reverse fatty liver (which will raise blood cholesterol levels while healing).

                          The starch is perfectly capable of refilling liver glycogen and keeping your conversion rate healthy without overtaxing the liver as fructose does.
                          The only thing that I'm unsure of is...

                          Fructose seems to produce more cholesterol than starch. Ray Peat actually recommends people with low cholesterol swap out starch in their diet for fruit sugar to raise cholesterol numbers.

                          But fructose also generates more CO2 than starch, which implies it is superior at boosting thyroid function.

                          So it's the chicken and the egg. If the high total cholesterol is a result of impaired thyroid function, fructose would be more beneficial than starch calorie-for-calorie. However, if the high TC is not related to thyroid, starch would be the superior choice. So which is the superior choice? I don't know. Trial and error perhaps?
                          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                            Along with the thyroid issue, you may also want to get your liver enzymes tested. To me, a high TC suggests two things:

                            1.) Impaired thyroid function
                            2.) Impaired liver function

                            Either you're hypo/exhibiting symptoms of adrenal fatigue leading to high cholesterol, or your liver is dumping cholesterol into your blood for some reason. The seed oils originally were considered heart healthy because they cause a sudden drop in blood cholesterol, but in reality it's because they make your liver hoard cholesterol (which leads to other problems...like fatty liver).

                            Yes, high TC is a symptom of something else being wrong, I agree with that. But for the time being, it may be a smart idea to reduce fats. I don't think a high fat diet is ideal for most of us. I believe we burn sugar preferentially for a reason and our body doesn't like being glycogen depleted as it is indicative of famine and a natural stressor that can cause chronic disease overtime. It doesn't sound like you're a HFLC zombe Yoga, which is good, but it may be smart to reduce fats and high fructose fruits for leaner meats, starches and veggies.

                            - OR - that could be a bad plan if you're hypothyroid because fruits and coconut oil is the prescription for helping fix that!

                            So many options...
                            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            I might consider a mix of what choco is talking about. That would be keep saturated fat high (good for liver), severely reduce fructose (good for liver), eat plenty of starch in the place of your fructose (refills liver glycogen just fine for thyroid hormone conversion).

                            Saturated fat has been shown to help improve liver function and even reverse fatty liver (which will raise blood cholesterol levels while healing).

                            The starch is perfectly capable of refilling liver glycogen and keeping your conversion rate healthy without overtaxing the liver as fructose does.
                            Thanks guys. You know, I've taken away all rules about food from now on, and ironically the food I want is exactly what you're suggesting! Rice, bananas, coconut milk, shell fish, gelatine, eggs, potatoes. That's it. That's been the core of my diet for the last two weeks. I've been eating coconut oil by the spoon but going to stop that. I also have a really strong instinct to give up the full fat greek yogurt.

                            My instinct is that the problem is starting in my liver. I'm not a big follower of chinese medicine, but I do like to get acupuncture and every time I've gone (for the last four years) I have been told my liver is blocked. After my tests tomorrow I'll start taking milk thistle.

                            That's interesting about the seed oils Choco. When I was HFLC I was gorging on nuts all the time. I wonder if all the PUFA had the effect of making my liver store the cholesterol, and now it's being released? (I haven't eaten nuts or avos in a few months).

                            Thanks again for the suggestions!
                            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                            - Ray Peat

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by GoJenGo View Post
                              I wondered if that might be the case, and that is just ridiculous. If there is any way you can swing it to cover the cost, I'd test privately. The omission of the T3 level in the test you took renders it fairly useless, based on my (limited) understanding Either the author of the protocol has ZERO understanding of how the thyroid and thyroid hormones work, or they know EXACTLY what they're doing. My money is on the latter. What a great way for them to avoid having to treat thyroid issues! You're not alone in your suspicion.

                              I'm sorry, this has got to be frustrating as hell.
                              It is frustrating, but not half as frustrating as it would be for someone who had no knowledge, no support, and was just put on endless reams of drugs which made them sicker and sicker (eg. my mum).

                              It's more scarey because my mum started getting sick (with her thyroid) when she was my age, and now she's a complete mess. I don't want to repeat her life.
                              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                              - Ray Peat

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                                Thanks guys. You know, I've taken away all rules about food from now on, and ironically the food I want is exactly what you're suggesting! Rice, bananas, coconut milk, shell fish, gelatine, eggs, potatoes. That's it. That's been the core of my diet for the last two weeks. I've been eating coconut oil by the spoon but going to stop that. I also have a really strong instinct to give up the full fat greek yogurt.

                                My instinct is that the problem is starting in my liver. I'm not a big follower of chinese medicine, but I do like to get acupuncture and every time I've gone (for the last four years) I have been told my liver is blocked. After my tests tomorrow I'll start taking milk thistle.

                                That's interesting about the seed oils Choco. When I was HFLC I was gorging on nuts all the time. I wonder if all the PUFA had the effect of making my liver store the cholesterol, and now it's being released? (I haven't eaten nuts or avos in a few months).

                                Thanks again for the suggestions!
                                This is pretty interesting.

                                Since the l930s, it has been clearly established that suppression of the thyroid raises serum cholesterol (while increasing mortality from infections, cancer, and heart disease), while restoring the thyroid hormone brings cholesterol down to normal. In this situation, however, thyroid isn't suppressing the synthesis of cholesterol, but rather is promoting its use to form hormones and bile salts. When the thyroid is functioning properly, the amount of cholesterol in the blood entering the ovary governs the amount of progesterone being produced by the ovary, and the same situation exists in all steroid-forming tissues, such as the adrenal glands and the brain. Progesterone and its precursor, pregnenolone, have a generalized protective function: antioxidant, anti-seizure, antitoxin, anti-spasm, anti-clot, anti-cancer, pro-memory, pro-myelination, pro-attention, etc. Any interference with the formation of cholesterol will interfere with all of these exceedingly important protective functions.

                                As far as the evidence goes, it suggests that coconut oil, added regularly to a balanced diet, lowers cholesterol to normal by promoting its conversion into pregnenolone. (The coconut family contains steroids that resemble pregnenolone, but these are probably mostly removed when the fresh oil is washed with water to remove the enzymes which would digest the oil.) Coconut-eating cultures in the tropics have consistently lower cholesterol than people in the U.S. Everyone that I know who uses coconut oil regularly happens to have cholesterol levels of about 160, while eating mainly cholesterol rich foods (eggs, milk, cheese, meat, shellfish). I encourage people to eat sweet fruits, rather than starches, if they want to increase their production of cholesterol, since fructose has that effect.
                                Coconut Oil

                                I think this article will be a very good read for you and may shed some light on your problems.
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                                Comment

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