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  • #31
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/TSH...090205-60.html
    Make America Great Again

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    • #32
      Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
      I just got back from my doc, where I was getting my first blood test results since being veggie / vegan. I got Cholesterol, Thyroid and Ferretin checked.

      My cholesterol has gone up from a already-high 6 (232.01856 mg/dl) two years ago (when I was a border-line ana vegan) to a shocking 10.4 (402.16551 mg/dl) (eating meat, fat, carbs). I've never heard of someone having cholesterol that high.
      Hi, Yogi, it's easy to talk the talk, not so easy to walk the walk because the walk is personal and in the case of cholesterol, frightening. Please fear not! At 35 my TC was 536 and I'm still alive wtih no signs of heart disease whatsoever. With age my TC has slowly come down, and on PB it's continuing down - it's now in the 340 range.

      Of course my doctors look upon 340 with disgust, but all my ratios are good. Just smile at your doctor and thank him for his advice. You could also mention that last year 286,000 americans died of the side-effects of drugs, not the disease they were being treated for, but just the drug side-effects. And statins have really bad side effects. For females with no history of heart attacks, studies show NO benefit from statins.

      You know all this! A little anger at your doctor for not being up to date in his studies will reduce the fear.

      Please let us know the results of your second test.
      "When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power." - Alston Chase

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        Coconut Oil

        This is interesting and it could apply to you. Two things could potentially be happening:

        1.) Your liver could be detoxifying and releasing lots of cholesterol into your bloodstream from your healthier dietary changes. However, this would be the case only if this was a fairly new change for you. Have you been primal awhile? Your username is almost a year old, so if you've been primal this whole time this probably isn't the case.

        2.) Do you eat a lot of pork, poultry or the classic eggs, bacon, nuts and avocado while maintaining a low carbohydrate diet low in sodium? That would be a diet very high in unsaturated fats and low in sugar, starch and salt, which is a recipe for hypothyroidism. You may want to consider taking a supplement made of dessicated thyroid and adrenal tissues, like Raw Thyroid and Raw Adrenal in unison or Vitacost's Thyroid Complex, which I take twice a day.

        Oh, and salt your food with iodized salt

        Just some thoughts.
        Thanks Choco

        I'm hoping it's option 1.

        I've been here nearly a year, but my woe has had many stages.

        May - Nov: VLC - mostly eating nuts, eggs, olives, yogurt and meat (all kinds). Prob about 250gs fat per day (no joke).
        Dec: terrible month food-wise (junk food binge) but started eating carbs again.
        Jan: mostly dairy, eggs, fruit, fish (in that order). Cut pork and chicken and nuts.
        Feb and March: Mostly eggs, fruit, rice, potatoes, fish, shell fish and red meat (ground beef or lamb on the bone). Cut avos.
        April - rice, fruit, a bit of dairy, only red meat, some refined sugar, honey, loads of coconut products, loads of salt, lots of fish and shell fish.

        Haven't had any junk food or any alcohol in more than a month. I did eat some pork about two weeks ago, but other than that, fish is my only PUFA.

        I'm eating high carb: Macros for March averaged at 45:37:18 (C:F:P).

        I did suspect I am hypo though, as I have most of the symptoms and it runs in my family. Which is why I got my bloods done...
        Last edited by YogaBare; 04-19-2013, 10:26 AM.
        "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

        In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

        - Ray Peat

        Comment


        • #34
          Thanks Derp Right, that does make more sense. I was speaking to Steve Richfield though and he said that having borderline high t4 means that my thyroid is working fine, but if t3 is low it means the glands around the thyroid aren't converting t4 to t3. How accurate do you think this is? He also said that glandular conversion issues are typically related to some sort of dietary or poisoning issue...
          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

          - Ray Peat

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cryptocode View Post
            Hi, Yogi, it's easy to talk the talk, not so easy to walk the walk because the walk is personal and in the case of cholesterol, frightening. Please fear not! At 35 my TC was 536 and I'm still alive wtih no signs of heart disease whatsoever. With age my TC has slowly come down, and on PB it's continuing down - it's now in the 340 range.

            Of course my doctors look upon 340 with disgust, but all my ratios are good. Just smile at your doctor and thank him for his advice. You could also mention that last year 286,000 americans died of the side-effects of drugs, not the disease they were being treated for, but just the drug side-effects. And statins have really bad side effects. For females with no history of heart attacks, studies show NO benefit from statins.

            You know all this! A little anger at your doctor for not being up to date in his studies will reduce the fear.

            Please let us know the results of your second test.
            Thank you Cryptocode!! That's so reassuring that at a similar age your numbers were even higher than mine and you've been fine! My doc practically told me that my options were 1) statins, 2) dying young. Seriously, if I hadn't been reprimanded for cursing by the mods already I'd be letting loose right now

            Did you ever find out if there was an underlying medical reason for your high TC?
            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

            - Ray Peat

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
              Thanks Derp Right, that does make more sense. I was speaking to Steve Richfield though and he said that having borderline high t4 means that my thyroid is working fine, but if t3 is low it means the glands around the thyroid aren't converting t4 to t3. How accurate do you think this is? He also said that glandular conversion issues are typically related to some sort of dietary or poisoning issue...
              Most t3 is converted in the liver
              Make America Great Again

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                Most t3 is converted in the liver
                You mean that t3 is converted to t1, or t4 is converted to t3?
                "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                - Ray Peat

                Comment


                • #38
                  Yoga, I'd be really cheap about it.

                  1.) I'd first get a retest to make sure the first wasn't a mistake.
                  2.) I'd take these two supps daily in the recommended serving:

                  Natural Sources Raw Adrenal -- 60 Capsules - Vitacost
                  Natural Sources Raw Thyroid -- 90 Capsules - Vitacost

                  Perhaps Derma is right and you're having a T4 to T3 conversion problem. Wouldn't that indicate stressed adrenals? I'm not an expert with this kind of stuff. Instead, I'd buy a thermometer and see if the two supps raise your body temp if it is subnormal. If you're sitting at 98.6, maybe you don't want thyroid/adrenal supps. If you are in the 97's, you may be boderline hypo or fully hypo, which raises cholesterol. You should know if the dessicated thyroid and adrenal helps you because you should feel warmer and overall a lot better. If it has no effect or makes you feel worse, I'd discontinue use. For the $20 it can't hurt to do a single cycle and retest cholesterol.

                  3.) Eliminate pork, poultry, fish, nuts and avocado from your diet temporarily and stick to lean ruminant meats and starches. Fructose may increase cholesterol, so I'd keep fruit consumption low as well. Cook only in coconut oil or pastured ghee/butter. Consider supplementing with coconut oil, like a teaspoon upon waking or before bed if it doesn't make you too energetic to sleep.

                  4.) Get plenty of sun or take a Vitamin D supp with food. You may be low in Vitamin D, which would raise cholesterol.

                  Other possibilities are deficiencies in Vitamin A and K, but if you're eating egg yolks and grassfed dairy...I'm not sure how likely that is?
                  Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 04-19-2013, 10:57 AM.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                    You mean that t3 is converted to t1, or t4 is converted to t3?
                    Most is produced in the liver by a conversion of T4 into T3 by the deiodinase enzymes.
                    Make America Great Again

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Hi YogaBare,

                      I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with your doc. Most GPs are morons, IMO. I figure that most of the smart people who went to med school ended up becoming specialists, and the pre-meds in my college chem and bio classes weren't really the smartest bunch either.

                      It sucks that you're assigned a doc and that you're stuck with him. That's just crazy. I've had terrible experiences with multiple GPs. I described the worst one here (warning: contains TMI): http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83344.html Man, if I were stuck with that woman I'd probably never go to the doctor ever again. I think it's rude and dumb that your doc tried to scare you into taking statins. For some reason, most docs have this knee-jerk reaction that medication is the answer to everything. Oh, you have this symptom, take this medication. (I think it's because they're too dumb to think about anything else, and it's easy to just know which meds to prescribe for which symptoms.) That doc I referred to in the above thread also scared me into taking the Miralax. (She needn't have pulled out the scare tactics--I was more than willing to comply at that point because I thought that Miralx was safe. I figured that it was just like synthetic fiber.) Anyway, she did pretty much tell me that my options were (1) start taking the Miralax permanently, or (2) risk never being able to go to the bathroom on my own ever again and having to carry around a bag. She literally told me this.

                      I wonder if they teach this in med school: how to scare patients into medication compliance. (Incidentally, when I went to the podiatrist for plantar fasciitis, the doc tried to scare me into getting orthotics too. Said that if I didn't start wearing orthotics, my Achilles tendon--or some other tendon, can't remember--would eventually snap and my entire foot would collapse.)

                      Anyway...I wish I could tell you something helpful about your cholesterol issue, but I don't really know much about it.

                      My journal

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        YB, I've read the entire thread to this point. My first suggestion, if it's possible in the UK, is to call your doctor and request a copy of all your test results. Here in the states doctors must provide copies, upon request.

                        As to the thyroid results-- It would be very helpful if you could include have reference ranges, if you have them. Without them, I will make some observations based on the ranges given by my lab.

                        Your T4 result of 11.6 indicates it's most likely TOTAL T4 and the upper limit for TT4 at my lab is 12.0. This say's to me that your thyroid is doing a very good job of producing T4 and, again using my reference range, does NOT indicate you are hyPER. Especially, since you don't seem to be having hyPER symptoms and you have not provided freeT4 results.

                        T4 is considered the storage hormone, while T3 is the active hormone.There are 2 forms of both T4 and T3.

                        Total T4 and total T3 measures the amount of bound and unbound hormone. FreeT4 and FreeT3 measures the unbound, usable amount of hormones.

                        Given this understanding, someone can have very good total T4 & T3 levels and have thyroid symptoms if their frees are low. Again totals indicate all the hormone. Frees indicate unbound hormone, available for body/cells to use.

                        I was kept very ill because of this scenario. My TSH is always in the hyPER range. My totals are great but without enough meds my frees are very low. It seems y body likes to bind thyroid hormone, essentially making most of it useless.

                        Many things can bind thyroid hormone, making it unusable by the body. Birth control pills and HRT are just 2 things that do this. If on meds, taking iron and or calcium within 4 hours of taking meds can interfere also.

                        The thyroid makes predominately T4. Only a small amount of T3 is made by the thyroid. The majority of T3 is made by T4 dropping 1 iodide molecule and thus converting to T3. This conversion happens in different places in the body--liver, kidney, muscles,etc-- with a majority of conversion being done in the liver.

                        Things that can inhibit conversion include:
                        1. Fatty liver
                        2. Low selenium 200mcg needed daily
                        3. Low vitamin D
                        4. Low iron, including ferritin
                        5. Too low calories and/or carbs
                        6. Over training.
                        7. Stress

                        All that being said, I don't think you have enough information to rule out, or in, problems with thyroid hormones. If it were me I'd want to see FT4, FT3, antibodies (TPO, TgAb), vitamin D, ferritin and possibly liver function tests.

                        I hope this helps.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                          Yoga, I'd be really cheap about it.

                          1.) I'd first get a retest to make sure the first wasn't a mistake.
                          2.) I'd take these two supps daily in the recommended serving:

                          Natural Sources Raw Adrenal -- 60 Capsules - Vitacost
                          Natural Sources Raw Thyroid -- 90 Capsules - Vitacost

                          Perhaps Derma is right and you're having a T4 to T3 conversion problem. Wouldn't that indicate stressed adrenals? I'm not an expert with this kind of stuff.
                          That's a good point: Adrenaline inhibits the conversion of T4 to T3. And I do seem to have hyperactive adrenals (which in itself indicates a thyroid problem, as a healthy thyroid takes care of the adrenals).

                          I'm getting retested on Tuesday, hopefully with a full thyroid panel as well.

                          I read what you wrote about the thyroid supp before - what's the story with the adrenal one?

                          Instead, I'd buy a thermometer and see if the two supps raise your body temp if it is subnormal. If you're sitting at 98.6, maybe you don't want thyroid/adrenal supps. If you are in the 97's, you may be boderline hypo or fully hypo, which raises cholesterol. You should know if the dessicated thyroid and adrenal helps you because you should feel warmer and overall a lot better. If it has no effect or makes you feel worse, I'd discontinue use. For the $20 it can't hurt to do a single cycle and retest cholesterol.
                          I've been checking body temp for the last month or so. It started off low, but I've been using Richfield's protocol of very hot showers and wearing insane amounts of warm clothes and I'm definitely noticing improvements: sleeping better, extremities aren't as cold, no major energy crashes: all indicating improved / reduced adrenaline response.

                          3.) Eliminate pork, poultry, fish, nuts and avocado from your diet temporarily and stick to lean ruminant meats and starches. Fructose may increase cholesterol, so I'd keep fruit consumption low as well. Cook only in coconut oil or pastured ghee/butter. Consider supplementing with coconut oil, like a teaspoon upon waking or before bed if it doesn't make you too energetic to sleep.
                          Nooooo... not my fruit! How little?

                          Haven't eaten nuts, avo, poultry in months. I wasn't convinced about fish til last week when I read how fish oils suppress the immune system and that's how they reduce inflammation. Worth a try I guess... Are you suggesting eliminating PUFA cos of their effect on thyroid hormone?

                          I only cook with coconut oil and I already supplement 3 tea spoons a day. Are you suggesting this for thyroid support?

                          4.) Get plenty of sun or take a Vitamin D supp with food. You may be low in Vitamin D, which would raise cholesterol.

                          Other possibilities are deficiencies in Vitamin A and K, but if you're eating egg yolks and grassfed dairy...I'm not sure how likely that is?[/QUOTE]

                          I think I'm okay for A and K but yeah, I'm defo low on Vit D. Not much sun in this part of the world!
                          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                          - Ray Peat

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by marcadav View Post
                            YB, I've read the entire thread to this point. My first suggestion, if it's possible in the UK, is to call your doctor and request a copy of all your test results. Here in the states doctors must provide copies, upon request.

                            As to the thyroid results-- It would be very helpful if you could include have reference ranges, if you have them. Without them, I will make some observations based on the ranges given by my lab.

                            Your T4 result of 11.6 indicates it's most likely TOTAL T4 and the upper limit for TT4 at my lab is 12.0. This say's to me that your thyroid is doing a very good job of producing T4 and, again using my reference range, does NOT indicate you are hyPER. Especially, since you don't seem to be having hyPER symptoms and you have not provided freeT4 results.

                            T4 is considered the storage hormone, while T3 is the active hormone.There are 2 forms of both T4 and T3.

                            Total T4 and total T3 measures the amount of bound and unbound hormone. FreeT4 and FreeT3 measures the unbound, usable amount of hormones.

                            Given this understanding, someone can have very good total T4 & T3 levels and have thyroid symptoms if their frees are low. Again totals indicate all the hormone. Frees indicate unbound hormone, available for body/cells to use.

                            I was kept very ill because of this scenario. My TSH is always in the hyPER range. My totals are great but without enough meds my frees are very low. It seems y body likes to bind thyroid hormone, essentially making most of it useless.

                            Many things can bind thyroid hormone, making it unusable by the body. Birth control pills and HRT are just 2 things that do this. If on meds, taking iron and or calcium within 4 hours of taking meds can interfere also.

                            The thyroid makes predominately T4. Only a small amount of T3 is made by the thyroid. The majority of T3 is made by T4 dropping 1 iodide molecule and thus converting to T3. This conversion happens in different places in the body--liver, kidney, muscles,etc-- with a majority of conversion being done in the liver.

                            Things that can inhibit conversion include:
                            1. Fatty liver
                            2. Low selenium 200mcg needed daily
                            3. Low vitamin D
                            4. Low iron, including ferritin
                            5. Too low calories and/or carbs
                            6. Over training.
                            7. Stress

                            All that being said, I don't think you have enough information to rule out, or in, problems with thyroid hormones. If it were me I'd want to see FT4, FT3, antibodies (TPO, TgAb), vitamin D, ferritin and possibly liver function tests.

                            I hope this helps.
                            Thank you!!! That is an amazingly helpful response! 11 is the high point for t4 over here, so 11.6 is slightly hyper by our measurements. But yeah, all my symptoms are hypo.

                            Thanks so much for explaining everything and for giving me that list of things to check. There is another doctor at the surgery and I managed to get an appointment with him for Monday. Hopefully he's not as much of a lemming as the other one and he';; allow me to have a full profile done.

                            I know we're mostly talking about thyroid, but I wonder if it's something to do with the liver. Liver detox / healing... t4 converted to t3 in liver. And I know this is a bit 'woo-woo', but any time i go for acupuncture i'm always told that my liver is blocked...
                            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                            - Ray Peat

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by serenity View Post
                              Hi YogaBare,

                              I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with your doc. Most GPs are morons, IMO. I figure that most of the smart people who went to med school ended up becoming specialists, and the pre-meds in my college chem and bio classes weren't really the smartest bunch either.

                              It sucks that you're assigned a doc and that you're stuck with him. That's just crazy. I've had terrible experiences with multiple GPs. I described the worst one here (warning: contains TMI): http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83344.html Man, if I were stuck with that woman I'd probably never go to the doctor ever again. I think it's rude and dumb that your doc tried to scare you into taking statins. For some reason, most docs have this knee-jerk reaction that medication is the answer to everything. Oh, you have this symptom, take this medication. (I think it's because they're too dumb to think about anything else, and it's easy to just know which meds to prescribe for which symptoms.) That doc I referred to in the above thread also scared me into taking the Miralax. (She needn't have pulled out the scare tactics--I was more than willing to comply at that point because I thought that Miralx was safe. I figured that it was just like synthetic fiber.) Anyway, she did pretty much tell me that my options were (1) start taking the Miralax permanently, or (2) risk never being able to go to the bathroom on my own ever again and having to carry around a bag. She literally told me this.

                              I wonder if they teach this in med school: how to scare patients into medication compliance. (Incidentally, when I went to the podiatrist for plantar fasciitis, the doc tried to scare me into getting orthotics too. Said that if I didn't start wearing orthotics, my Achilles tendon--or some other tendon, can't remember--would eventually snap and my entire foot would collapse.)

                              Anyway...I wish I could tell you something helpful about your cholesterol issue, but I don't really know much about it.
                              Thanks Serenity Yeah seriously... it should be considered malpractice to tell a young person in their prime that their only option is to take very powerful drugs for the rest of their lives. Or else! I actually started to laugh when he told me my cholesterol and my prognosis. Age 31: cholesterol 10.4: statins. It was like a comedy sketch.

                              Sorry to hear you had shitty experiences too! Healthcare: yet another subset of society with substandard standards.
                              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                              - Ray Peat

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                                Thank you!!! That is an amazingly helpful response! 11 is the high point for t4 over here, so 11.6 is slightly hyper by our measurements. But yeah, all my symptoms are hypo.

                                Thanks so much for explaining everything and for giving me that list of things to check. There is another doctor at the surgery and I managed to get an appointment with him for Monday. Hopefully he's not as much of a lemming as the other one and he';; allow me to have a full profile done.

                                I know we're mostly talking about thyroid, but I wonder if it's something to do with the liver. Liver detox / healing... t4 converted to t3 in liver. And I know this is a bit 'woo-woo', but any time i go for acupuncture i'm always told that my liver is blocked...
                                You might have liver issues. I would see if you can have liver function tests run. Milk thistle and dandelion are suppose to be good for the liver.

                                Comment

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