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Are there any scientific studies showing the negative effects from PUFA's?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
    Choco, have saturated fats affected your blood lipids? They shot mine through the roof!
    Your total cholesterol? Or your HDL and LDL?

    My total cholesterol definitely went up since going Primal. However, it's because my HDL's doubled. Red meat probably won't increase your TC because stearate has little effect on cholesterol. Coconut oil may increase your TC significantly, but it's almost always at the expense of HDL's going up.

    Also, how do you know it's due to saturated fat? Did you drastically drop your carbohydrate intake and increase overall fat intake? A higher fat intake is probably going to raise your total cholesterol. It doesn't matter as long as your ratios are good. Lowest all cause mortality is lowest with a TC of 200-240. A doctor will tell you you have high cholesterol. Not so according to actual mortality facts. If you want bad cholesterol, go <160 TC. Funny thing is a doc will give you a gold star.

    Cholesterol IMO is one of the least useful tests anyway. What do I consider far more important?

    T3/T4/TSH/rT3
    A1c
    C-reactive protein
    Triglyceride
    Fasting BG
    Vitamin D3
    Free testosterone
    Estrogen / Cortisol / Adrenaline
    CO2 (biggie!)

    Cholesterol doesn't tell you a whole lot. I want metabolic health. Chances are someone with a properly functioning thyroid, a strong CO2 reading (indicating strong mitochondrial oxidation), low estrogen/adrenaline/cortisol, high testosterone, stable blood glucose (73-80) and low c-reactive protein has a healthy metabolism and low inflammation. You're probably not going to get heart disease if you're not inflamed, your stress hormones are low and your metabolic rate is high regardless of cholesterol, right?

    Trying to correct your cholesterol when you're an inflammatory, stressed out mess is like wearing a bulletproof vest into a bad neighborhood. Why not just stay out of the bad neighborhood?
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 04-15-2013, 09:36 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      Your total cholesterol? Or your HDL and LDL?

      My total cholesterol definitely went up since going Primal. However, it's because my HDL's doubled. Red meat probably won't increase your TC because stearate has little effect on cholesterol. Coconut oil may increase your TC significantly, but it's almost always at the expense of HDL's going up.

      Also, how do you know it's due to saturated fat? Did you drastically drop your carbohydrate intake and increase overall fat intake? A higher fat intake is probably going to raise your total cholesterol. It doesn't matter as long as your ratios are good. Lowest all cause mortality is lowest with a TC of 200-240. A doctor will tell you you have high cholesterol. Not so according to actual mortality facts. If you want bad cholesterol, go <160 TC. Funny thing is a doc will give you a gold star.

      Cholesterol IMO is one of the least useful tests anyway. What do I consider far more important?

      T3/T4/TSH/rT3
      A1c
      C-reactive protein
      Triglyceride
      Fasting BG
      Vitamin D3
      Free testosterone
      Estrogen / Cortisol / Adrenaline
      CO2 (biggie!)

      Cholesterol doesn't tell you a whole lot. I want metabolic health. Chances are someone with a properly functioning thyroid, a strong CO2 reading (indicating strong mitochondrial oxidation), low estrogen/adrenaline/cortisol, high testosterone, stable blood glucose (73-80) and low c-reactive protein has a healthy metabolism and low inflammation. You're probably not going to get heart disease if you're not inflamed, your stress hormones are low and your metabolic rate is high regardless of cholesterol, right?

      Trying to correct your cholesterol when you're an inflammatory, stressed out mess is like wearing a bulletproof vest into a bad neighborhood. Why not just stay out of the bad neighborhood?
      Here is what I posted earlier. Not sure if is VLC or the high saturated fat or both. When I met with my Dr he opened by saying "this is the most atherogenic lipid profile I have ever seen!!"

      ************************************************** ******************************************
      Hot off the press. Here are the results of my first blood work since going LCHF. I just listed the tests which changed a lot and/or are out of the reference range. For comparison, I am showing previous results from Nov 2011. I have been pretty hardcore LCHF for 6-8 months and weight has been steady during that period. I eat 90-95 grams of protein per day, 50 or less grams of carbs and the rest of my 2400 cals come from mostly mono and saturated fats such as pastured eggs, avocados, grass fed beef and bison, EVOO, 90% dark chocolate and LOTS of coconut and coconut oil.

      Total Cholesterol 398 up from 242

      HDL-C 130 up from 51

      LDL-C 253 up from 163

      Trigs 74 down from 140

      Creatinine 1.34 up from .92

      Alkaline Phosphatase 27 down from 52

      My A1C is 5.1. I thought it would be a little lower but I did have a few nasty spikes during the last month, one of which exceeded 200.

      My doc is freaking out. He wants to see me immediately to discuss these results and I know he is frustrated with me as I have been refusing his advice to take statins for almost 20 years.

      Happy with the A1C but thought trigs would be lower and LDL-C is kind of scary. I know I have a great trig/HDL-C ratio but....Guess I better lay-off the coconut or at least scale it way back?

      I would appreciate any and all comments. Thanks.

      Comment


      • #33
        Well, you may want to look at this:

        LDL Cholesterol Calculator

        The good news is your LDL is probably more like 217 because the Friedewald formula they used is unreliable with trigs <100.

        That being said...

        Why are you HFLC? Why are you eating "lots of" coconut oil? Coconut oil isn't food, and it does raise your cholesterol. Your profile doesn't say much.

        Did you get an LDL pattern test? What is your C-reactive protein? Your LDL could be bad, or...if it's large pattern A with low inflammation it doesn't matter much.

        Step 1: Get a retest. This could be an outlier.
        Step 2: GET A DIRECT LDL MEASUREMENT. Your LDL is wrong and your doctor doesn't realize it.
        Step 3: Get a C-reactive protein test.
        Step 4: Get your T3/T4/rT3/TSH tested.
        Step 5: Report back.

        Other things I'd do: Stop eating pure fat. It isn't food. If you eat coconut oil, you may as well eat a bag of sugar. Not food. Also, eat more carbs. A lot more. Cut your fats in half. There is hardly any reason to eat <50g of carbohydrate a day. Carbohydrate IMO is healthier than fat, and it is far more essential. You need virtually no fat to survive. You need 200g of glucose a day. If you want it sucked out of your muscles and connective tissues, by all means continue eating LCHF. I personally would advocate low fat dieting with whole foods than low carb dieting with whole foods.
        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          Well, you may want to look at this:

          LDL Cholesterol Calculator

          The good news is your LDL is probably more like 217 because the Friedewald formula they used is unreliable with trigs <100.

          That being said...

          Why are you HFLC? Why are you eating "lots of" coconut oil? Coconut oil isn't food, and it does raise your cholesterol. Your profile doesn't say much.

          Did you get an LDL pattern test? What is your C-reactive protein? Your LDL could be bad, or...if it's large pattern A with low inflammation it doesn't matter much.

          Step 1: Get a retest. This could be an outlier.
          Step 2: GET A DIRECT LDL MEASUREMENT. Your LDL is wrong and your doctor doesn't realize it.
          Step 3: Get a C-reactive protein test.
          Step 4: Get your T3/T4/rT3/TSH tested.
          Step 5: Report back.

          Other things I'd do: Stop eating pure fat. It isn't food. If you eat coconut oil, you may as well eat a bag of sugar. Not food. Also, eat more carbs. A lot more. Cut your fats in half. There is hardly any reason to eat <50g of carbohydrate a day. Carbohydrate IMO is healthier than fat, and it is far more essential. You need virtually no fat to survive. You need 200g of glucose a day. If you want it sucked out of your muscles and connective tissues, by all means continue eating LCHF. I personally would advocate low fat dieting with whole foods than low carb dieting with whole foods.
          I have to limit carbs to manage my BG levels. My goal is less than 140/120 at 2/1 hour postprandial. Asked Dr about hypothyroid and he said no way as I do not exhibit any symptoms. I did get him to order a C reactive protein and VAP. Yes, I also got 217 using the Iranian formula so our math looks right there. I will get the complete thyroid panel done myself through DirectLabs.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
            I have to limit carbs to manage my BG levels. My goal is less than 140/120 at 2/1 hour postprandial. Asked Dr about hypothyroid and he said no way as I do not exhibit any symptoms. I did get him to order a C reactive protein and VAP. Yes, I also got 217 using the Iranian formula so our math looks right there. I will get the complete thyroid panel done myself through DirectLabs.
            I agree with your doctor. Don't go monkeying with your thyroid if your not experiencing any of the signs/symptoms. Lab tests are only of use when they correlate with physical findings and patient history.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
              I have to limit carbs to manage my BG levels. My goal is less than 140/120 at 2/1 hour postprandial. Asked Dr about hypothyroid and he said no way as I do not exhibit any symptoms. I did get him to order a C reactive protein and VAP. Yes, I also got 217 using the Iranian formula so our math looks right there. I will get the complete thyroid panel done myself through DirectLabs.
              I'm not sure I understand.

              When you eat starch and sugar, how high does your blood glucose go within 30-60 mins? It is very, very important to realize that carbohydrate does not cause diabetes or hurt insulin sensitivity. It improves it. If you keep eating a ketogenic level diet, you will never recover your ability of oxidize glucose properly. You will make it worse because low carbohydrate diets cause physiological insulin resistance. Avoiding carbohydrate leads to elevated fasting blood glucose.

              The way you will successfully heal your body is by including carbohydrate into your diet, removing PUFA from your diet (because that is the real cause of insulin resistance and diabetes) and becoming replete in minerals and fat soluble vitamins. Eating lots of eggs, avocado and nuts introduces lots of polyunsaturated fat into your diet. If I were you, I'd go on a diet of leaner red meats, whole milk, cook solely in coconut oil or grassfed butter/ghee and cycle fruits and lower GI starches (squashes and small sweet potatoes mainly) into my diet to improve insulin sensitivity. When you slowly become replete on the fat soluble vitamins A, D and K and you regularly consume sugar from whole foods, your glucose tolerance should improve. I recommend doing it with a blood glucose meter, though. Don't go eating pounds of mangoes and potatoes, but rather simply consume some fruit or squash along with a meal and slowly increase portions while decreasing fats simultaneously as your blood glucose numbers improve.

              I also recommend taking a supplement called "Raw Adrenal" and "Raw Thyroid" daily. You may also want to consider taking niacinamide and AVOID FISH OIL LIKE THE PLAGUE. You'll be hardpressed to find a person with heart disease or metabolic syndrome that isn't hypothyroid. I believe PUFA and hypothyroid is really the cause of most modern disease. Gluten grains and nutritional deficiencies are just icing on the cake.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

              Comment


              • #37
                Oh, wait we are in the PUFA thread??? Where the heck did this derail at?

                Hmmmm, back to PUFA...most studies show that with adequate nutrition it becomes a nonissue. Nuts are packed with things like Vitamin E which mitigates if not totally gets rid of the adverse effects of PUFA consumption. Seed oils and other highly processed crap are not packaged with their natural constituents and so don't offer such protection.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  I agree with your doctor. Don't go monkeying with your thyroid if your not experiencing any of the signs/symptoms. Lab tests are only of use when they correlate with physical findings and patient history.
                  Avoiding carbohydrate when you have blood glucose issues is just avoiding the problem. If you have metabolic syndrome, you're not going to get better simply cutting out 1/3 of the foods on Earth and exercising a much less efficient fat metabolism. If you have two fuel tanks on your vehicle and your first tank has a leak, you don't make the problem go away by simply using the second gas tank and ignoring the first. You fix the first.

                  Get a blood glucose meter, fix your thyroid and cycle starch into your diet while monitoring the levels so you know when enough is enough. You may only be able to tolerate small quantities at first, but if you're not willing to go through the therapy you'll never fix the problem. Metabolic syndrome is at heart an overabundance of polyunsaturated fat and hypothyroidism. And you're going to fix it by eating a fatty diet free of carbohydrate? That only further slows your thyroid and introduces more PUFA into your system because sugar, starch and salt speed up your thyroid! You're doing the opposite of what you should be doing.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                    Hmmmm, back to PUFA...most studies show that with adequate nutrition it becomes a nonissue. Nuts are packed with things like Vitamin E which mitigates if not totally gets rid of the adverse effects of PUFA consumption.
                    Nuts come with Vitamin E to protect a whole nut buried in the cool ground against oxidation long enough to help it germinate. When you remove that nut from its shell, expose it to room temperature or even worse - grind it into meals and bake it - that Vitamin E then isn't enough anymore. You're increasing the oxidation rate an order of magnitude but not contributing anymore Vitamin E. I like nuts just fine in small quantities, but I think someone with metabolic issues should avoid them like the plague.
                    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                      Nuts come with Vitamin E to protect a whole nut buried in the cool ground against oxidation long enough to help it germinate. When you remove that nut from its shell, expose it to room temperature or even worse - grind it into meals and bake it - that Vitamin E then isn't enough anymore. You're increasing the oxidation rate an order of magnitude but not contributing anymore Vitamin E. I like nuts just fine in small quantities, but I think someone with metabolic issues should avoid them like the plague.
                      Already covered this earlier in the thread I thought. Quite simply nuts are not the exception to the well sourced and well stored rule. Just as much care has to be taken in choosing and storing nuts as any of your other food. If you go pain staking lengths to assure the quality and storage of your beef to prevent spoilage or contamination do the same for nuts and seeds. Nobody can convince me that these things are not fit for human consumption even in vast quantity as long as we are talking whole form. I take an evolutionary approach to this and nuts and seeds have made up a substantial portion of our diet for quite some time.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        I'm not sure I understand.

                        When you eat starch and sugar, how high does your blood glucose go within 30-60 mins? It is very, very important to realize that carbohydrate does not cause diabetes or hurt insulin sensitivity. It improves it. If you keep eating a ketogenic level diet, you will never recover your ability of oxidize glucose properly. You will make it worse because low carbohydrate diets cause physiological insulin resistance. Avoiding carbohydrate leads to elevated fasting blood glucose.

                        The way you will successfully heal your body is by including carbohydrate into your diet, removing PUFA from your diet (because that is the real cause of insulin resistance and diabetes) and becoming replete in minerals and fat soluble vitamins. Eating lots of eggs, avocado and nuts introduces lots of polyunsaturated fat into your diet. If I were you, I'd go on a diet of leaner red meats, whole milk, cook solely in coconut oil or grassfed butter/ghee and cycle fruits and lower GI starches (squashes and small sweet potatoes mainly) into my diet to improve insulin sensitivity. When you slowly become replete on the fat soluble vitamins A, D and K and you regularly consume sugar from whole foods, your glucose tolerance should improve. I recommend doing it with a blood glucose meter, though. Don't go eating pounds of mangoes and potatoes, but rather simply consume some fruit or squash along with a meal and slowly increase portions while decreasing fats simultaneously as your blood glucose numbers improve.

                        I also recommend taking a supplement called "Raw Adrenal" and "Raw Thyroid" daily. You may also want to consider taking niacinamide and AVOID FISH OIL LIKE THE PLAGUE. You'll be hardpressed to find a person with heart disease or metabolic syndrome that isn't hypothyroid. I believe PUFA and hypothyroid is really the cause of most modern disease. Gluten grains and nutritional deficiencies are just icing on the cake.
                        Choco, my body does not comply with your theory. My pre-diabetes, insulin resistance or whatever you want to call it, developed over a decade+ period of eating the type of diet you are recommending for me now. When I eat more than 20+/- carbs (GI does not seem to matter) my one hour postprandial exceeds 140. I have talked with many T1 and T2 diabetics who are successfully controlling BG by severely restricting carbohydrate as recommended by Dr Richard Bernstein. Do you actually know anyone who has improved insulin sensitivity by eating more sugar?
                        Last edited by Artbuc; 04-15-2013, 02:57 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                          And you're going to fix it by eating a fatty diet free of carbohydrate? That only further slows your thyroid and introduces more PUFA into your system because sugar, starch and salt speed up your thyroid! You're doing the opposite of what you should be doing.
                          I question the low carb - low metabolism perception, it seems to be more related to high PUFA's, just put up a thread to that effect.
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1160860
                          "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                            Avoiding carbohydrate when you have blood glucose issues is just avoiding the problem. If you have metabolic syndrome, you're not going to get better simply cutting out 1/3 of the foods on Earth and exercising a much less efficient fat metabolism. If you have two fuel tanks on your vehicle and your first tank has a leak, you don't make the problem go away by simply using the second gas tank and ignoring the first. You fix the first.

                            Get a blood glucose meter, fix your thyroid and cycle starch into your diet while monitoring the levels so you know when enough is enough. You may only be able to tolerate small quantities at first, but if you're not willing to go through the therapy you'll never fix the problem. Metabolic syndrome is at heart an overabundance of polyunsaturated fat and hypothyroidism. And you're going to fix it by eating a fatty diet free of carbohydrate? That only further slows your thyroid and introduces more PUFA into your system because sugar, starch and salt speed up your thyroid! You're doing the opposite of what you should be doing.
                            What the hell are you goin on about?

                            How does this ....


                            "I agree with your doctor. Don't go monkeying with your thyroid if your not experiencing any of the signs/symptoms. Lab tests are only of use when they correlate with physical findings and patient history."

                            Elicit a response about your personal views on VLC? I swear.

                            And you really need to throw a big IMO after the above bolded portion considering that many of us, scientists, and various types of doctors have been studying this problem for years and would not dare such a bold statement as if it was fact.

                            Its odd to me that you don't see that PUFA is getting the same exact treatment that you seem to detest when it comes to carbs. You would eliminate a whole group of fats based on some cherry picked studies, when the vast amount of data shows that PUFA from whole food source is quite health promoting.

                            IMO the following are apt comparisons.

                            Seed oils = sugar and refined grains

                            Nuts, avocados, and fish = whole fruits
                            Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-15-2013, 04:04 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Omni View Post
                              I question the low carb - low metabolism perception, it seems to be more related to high PUFA's, just put up a thread to that effect.
                              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1160860
                              No need to question it..... Its complete bunk. Low calorie = low metabolism. Just so happens many people on low carb are restricting calories to lose weight. Shocking, I know.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                There was a well publicized study of 7th Day Adventists a number of years ago showing that the people who ate nuts had lower incidence of cardiovascular disease than the others:

                                Adventist Health Studies - LLU Adventist Health Study

                                As far as the low carb discussion, for a balanced discussion by someone who does not have a website that is designed to sell things, go to eatingacademy.com and spend some time there. The head of the Duke Metabolic Clinic is treating type II diabetes with carbohydrate restriction and gets excellent results.

                                Your LDL is at first scary, but the followup discussion was not bad. If you have lost a lot of weight recently, it would not be surprising to have a temporary increase in total cholesterol and LDL-C; mobilizing fat out of your fat cells also mobilizes cholesterol in the fat cell membranes. I don't have time to look up the studies but I think if you are actively losing weight it might be a good idea to wait until you are more stable before getting too worried about LDL-C.

                                also LDL-C is not a very good marker of risk compared to LDL particle count from Liposcience or Apo-B levels from a variety of places. But I think the same warning should apply if you're in the midst of weight loss.
                                10/2/12: 169 lbs, 37"waist
                                Now: low 150's, 33" waist
                                Blog: http://paleopathologist.com/

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