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Are there any scientific studies showing the negative effects from PUFA's?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    This is why I don't eat pork or poultry and all my red meat is grass fed/finished. I do eat lots of seafood and eggs. And I don't supplement.

    No hail Marys needed for me.
    I only eat poultry if it's the best "primal" option when eating out and pork is MAYBE once a week for me? So I think I am doing fairly well on this as well. I also eat plenty of pastured eggs, some seafood maybe once a week, and lots of grass-fed beef and lamb.
    "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
      I only eat poultry if it's the best "primal" option when eating out and pork is MAYBE once a week for me? So I think I am doing fairly well on this as well. I also eat plenty of pastured eggs, some seafood maybe once a week, and lots of grass-fed beef and lamb.
      Right. I will eat pork or poultry if it is the only thing edible on the menu or in the case of not wanting to be an ungrateful jerk when a friend has made dinner.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
        Again, I disagree that it's "nearly impossible to get too much o-3."

        In the context you frame it, "a balanced primal diet," you can easily get too much. Eating fatty fish? Consuming a lot of pasture-raised eggs? Check and check for the majority of us. Both are good sources of o-3 and you can overdo it. And then, a lot of us primals supplement with cod liver oil or fish capsules on top of that.

        Not to mention that the o-6 levels found in pork and poultry kind of mean we NEED those "hail Marys" Paleobird was talking about just to keep our ratios in check. But then, this leads to too much o-3 AND o-6.

        Bottom line is here, keep o-6 levels as low as you can, then o-3s can be low as well, and no overload of either and yet you keep the ratio in balance.
        I will beg to differ here,
        The best I've seen from any terrestrial foods, without O3 enrichment, is a ratio of about 3:1, usually higher, that is still significantly under the optimum of 2:1 or 1:1 depending on source.

        So unless you are loading more than half your diet with fatty fish, it is unlikely you will exceed the 1:1 ratio, besides, you will probably have exceeded your optimum protein intake at this point as well.

        So again if you are eating a balanced primal diet without excessive O3 supplimentation it is highly unlikely you will exceed the optimum O6:O3 ratio.
        Last edited by Omni; 04-14-2013, 07:58 PM.
        "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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        • #19
          Omni, I think we are disagreeing on the definition of "too much o-3" here.

          To me, too much o-3 is not "when you get more o-3 than o-6 in your diet."

          To me, too much o-3 is "when you've consumed more than your body needs and the rest is likely to simply oxidize and cause harm."

          You can have a perfectly optimized 1:1 ratio of o-3 to o-6 in your diet and still have too much o-3, especially if your o-6 load is large to begin with and you need lots and lots of o-3 to simply balance your ratio out.
          "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

          Comment


          • #20
            Fair enough,
            How much O3 is too much? I don't know what that number is.

            I haven't seen a paper specifically detailing that point, but one does have to wonder about the arctic and many tropical island peoples where the bulk of their food consumption is sourced from the sea, this would atleast indicat a higher absolute quantity than even the average Primal eater would encounter.

            Will keep that query in the background file, if I should stumble across anything relevant.
            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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            • #21
              Too much is more than a couple of grams of each I think.
              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

              Griff's cholesterol primer
              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
              bloodorchid is always right

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              • #22
                Good points all, Omni. It may also be possible that the people you speculate about, because of their environment (colder weather, less sunlight in winter, etc.) may have had a particular increased need for PUFAs? Or more likely, the environment off-set the impact of them consuming excess PUFAs?

                If they were eating lots of caribou, seal, and whale fat though, would not that have been mostly saturated and monounsaturated, not PUFA fat? I see fish and shellfish as having a bit of PUFA but seals an whales are mammals which tend to have more saturated and monounsaturated fat in general.

                Lots to ponder on this one.
                Last edited by Drumroll; 04-14-2013, 09:17 PM.
                "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Don't know about whale blubber,
                  But seal oil was mostly very long chain poly unsaturated and I read somewhere that the Inuit used it mainly for heat and light, and only ate it when nothing else was available.
                  "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Just found this on Minke whales:
                    http://munin.uit.no/bitstream/handle...pdf?sequence=1
                    Basically 60%Mono, 20% SFA, 20% PUFA (mostly O3)

                    The MUFAs was the group of FA with the highest average percent in all three layers, with a sum varying from 60 to 65 % (Table 3). A sum of 18 to 22 % SFAs and 18 to 19 % PUFAs were found in the three layers.
                    The relatative abundance of the individual FA varies a lot (Figure 7 and Table 3). The SFAs with the highest abundances are 14:0 and 16:0. The MUFAs with highest abundance are 16:1(n-7), 18:1(n-9), 18:1(n-7) 20:1(n-9) and 22:1(n-11). 18:1(n-9) has the highest abundance of all the 42 FAs. The PUFAs with highest abundance are 18:2(n-6), 18:4(n-3), 20:5(n-3) and 22:6(n-3). The MUFAs with 14, 16 and 18 carbon atoms had a higher percentage in the outer layer, except 18:1(n-11) which had the highest percentage share in the inner layer. The inner blubber had the highest share of MUFA with 20 carbon atoms, except 20:1(n-11) which has highest share in the outer blubber, and 22:1(n-11) which has it highest share in the middle layer. The FA 18:1(n-11) was found in all blubber layers (Table 3), but was almost not present in the FA composition of the prey (Table 4).
                    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                    • #25
                      So, mostly mono fats, but not insignificant poly levels.

                      Still, I know Inuits in Canada and Alaska are very often given exceptions the whale hunting laws due to consideration of their traditional diet and culture, so they probably eat their fair share of the stuff.
                      "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Linoleic acid toxicity seems to be a real thing but IMO it's a little silly to consider almonds equivalent to the daily ocean of chips, miracle whip, ranch dressing, and bloomin onions that most eat. Quantity matters, and almonds contain other stuff.

                        How often are people actually using almond flour? I use a little on holidays usually cut with some coconut or tapioca and treat celebratory desserts as such. Everyone knows that a cake is not a weekday breakfast (I hope?)
                        37//6'3"/185

                        My peculiar nutrition glossary and shopping list

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                        • #27
                          L
                          Originally posted by picklepete View Post
                          Linoleic acid toxicity seems to be a real thing but IMO it's a little silly to consider almonds equivalent to the daily ocean of chips, miracle whip, ranch dressing, and bloomin onions that most eat. Quantity matters, and almonds contain other stuff.

                          How often are people actually using almond flour? I use a little on holidays usually cut with some coconut or tapioca and treat celebratory desserts as such. Everyone knows that a cake is not a weekday breakfast (I hope?)
                          True toxicity is possible, but EXTREMELY unlikely.

                          The real issue here, I think, is the issue of inflammation caused by excess polyunsaturated fats in the diet since in reality, we need so very little to maintain health.
                          "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Low grade inflamation is not going to be expressed as vomiting or diarrhea, it will be expressed as an obscure set of symptoms contributing to chronic disease that will manifest in different ways for each individual.

                            Will a little bit of almond flour make a difference, probably not, will a lot, probably yes, it's all about being aware of what is doing what according to the information available to us.
                            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MonkeyGuy View Post
                              I just read this article on the dangers of using Almond flour because of the potential of overdosing on Poly Unsaturated Fats (PUFA's). 5 Reasons to Avoid Almond Flour - Empowered Sustenance
                              I'm going to be very vague - on purpose - because there is so much extensive information on the damaging effects on PUFA's AND so much information glorifying unsaturated fats in general and demonizing saturated fats in general you really have to read it all and develop your own opinion.

                              My opinion is that the studies demonizing saturated fat are constituted entirely of epidemiological hogwash and industry propaganda plagued with red herrings and correlation, while the studies demonizing PUFA are usually controlled and direct. I embrace saturated fat with open arms and believe it should be the dominant fat in your diet, while I despise PUFA with every fabric of my being and believe it is PUFA - not grains, not legumes, not sugar - causing the overwhelming majority of health defects in our society. I believe fish oil to be worse than canola oil as well. But, you have to develop your own opinion. I will point you in a direction. There is NO better site on Earth documenting the damaging effects of PUFA than....

                              Ray Peat

                              Read it. All.

                              This study is a mindblower as well.

                              The Advanced Glycation End Product, N-(Carboxymethyl)lysine, Is a Product of both Lipid Peroxidation and Glycoxidation Reactions

                              It is a lovely study showing PUFA causes 23 times more AGE production than sugar. Yet, it's called...glycation...hmm...

                              I also believe diabetes is caused by PUFA, not sugar. I believe sugar to protect against diabetes, actually, and I believe glucose is much more essential than fat. You can clearly see where I stand on the issue.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                                I'm going to be very vague - on purpose - because there is so much extensive information on the damaging effects on PUFA's AND so much information glorifying unsaturated fats in general and demonizing saturated fats in general you really have to read it all and develop your own opinion.

                                My opinion is that the studies demonizing saturated fat are constituted entirely of epidemiological hogwash and industry propaganda plagued with red herrings and correlation, while the studies demonizing PUFA are usually controlled and direct. I embrace saturated fat with open arms and believe it should be the dominant fat in your diet, while I despise PUFA with every fabric of my being and believe it is PUFA - not grains, not legumes, not sugar - causing the overwhelming majority of health defects in our society. I believe fish oil to be worse than canola oil as well. But, you have to develop your own opinion. I will point you in a direction. There is NO better site on Earth documenting the damaging effects of PUFA than....

                                Ray Peat

                                Read it. All.

                                This study is a mindblower as well.

                                The Advanced Glycation End Product, N-(Carboxymethyl)lysine, Is a Product of both Lipid Peroxidation and Glycoxidation Reactions

                                It is a lovely study showing PUFA causes 23 times more AGE production than sugar. Yet, it's called...glycation...hmm...

                                I also believe diabetes is caused by PUFA, not sugar. I believe sugar to protect against diabetes, actually, and I believe glucose is much more essential than fat. You can clearly see where I stand on the issue.
                                Choco, have saturated fats affected your blood lipids? They shot mine through the roof!

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