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Primal Diet = Kidney Stones?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    Yes , this was the case in the early years of this protocol but is no longer true. Yet the concerns about kidney stones prevail due to outdated information.
    Thanks. That's reassuring.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
      Yes , this was the case in the early years of this protocol but is no longer true. Yet the concerns about kidney stones prevail due to outdated information.
      So does that mean there is data now showing the kids kept at normal hydration levels while on ketogenic diets don't get kidney stones?

      I'd love to see the data if you have a link available.
      Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

      http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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      • #18
        Originally posted by jammies View Post
        So does that mean there is data now showing the kids kept at normal hydration levels while on ketogenic diets don't get kidney stones?

        I'd love to see the data if you have a link available.
        I don't think anyone did randomized double blind tests or anything. They just stopped with the silly water restrictions and the kidney stones stopped being a problem.

        Some good general resources for the history and more modern variations of ketosis for epilepsy can be found by googling Johns Hopkins+ketosis and also the AtkinsForSeizures.com site.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
          I don't think anyone did randomized double blind tests or anything. They just stopped with the silly water restrictions and the kidney stones stopped being a problem.

          Some good general resources for the history and more modern variations of ketosis for epilepsy can be found by googling Johns Hopkins+ketosis and also the AtkinsForSeizures.com site.
          I've been doing some more searching and I can't really find this info. I did see that the JOhns Hopkins protocol had added potassium citrate to combat the formation of stones. Is this not the current protocol?

          I also saw the report that adults who had been on a ketogenic diet for seizures as children did not have increased rates of kidney stones, but nothing about the change in stone formation with the absence of water restriction.

          Any suggestions?
          Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

          http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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          • #20
            Originally posted by jammies View Post
            I've been doing some more searching and I can't really find this info. I did see that the JOhns Hopkins protocol had added potassium citrate to combat the formation of stones. Is this not the current protocol?

            I also saw the report that adults who had been on a ketogenic diet for seizures as children did not have increased rates of kidney stones, but nothing about the change in stone formation with the absence of water restriction.

            Any suggestions?
            I believe they added the potassium supplement to combat the kidney stone fears. Ketosis and kidney stones is like ketosis and hair loss. Both totally false correlations but it is hard to get rid of a meme once circulating.

            I wish I could give you a page to look up. I have read so much about the subject but not kept it all catalogued. IIRC I read about the water restriction not being part of the current protocol on the AtkinsForSeizures.com website. It is meant as a resource/forum site for parents of kids with epilepsy.

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            • #21
              This is a recent article on the subject:Ketogenic Diet Side Effects

              From that link:"Kidney stone formation (nephrolithiasis) is associated with the diet for four reasons: [My comments in brackets]

              Excess calcium in the urine (hypercalciuria) occurs due to increased bone demineralisation with acidosis.[NOTE: acidosis is problem in type 1 diabetic children, not normal ones.]

              Hypocitraturia: the urine has an abnormally low concentration of citrate, which normally helps to dissolve free calcium.[Hence the potassium citrate supplements.]

              The urine has a low pH, which stops uric acid from dissolving, leading to crystals that act as a nidus for calcium stone formation.

              Many institutions traditionally restricted the water intake of patients on the diet to 80% of normal daily needs; this practice is no longer encouraged."

              To this I would add that the diet has also been traditionally very heavily reliant on dairy products. The advent of MCT oil has allowed for a greater amount of fat without so much in the way of milk solids.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Chupo View Post
                Children on the Ketogenic diet for epilepsy are purposely kept dehydrated. Dehydration can cause kidney stones.

                I'm not familiar with epilepsy meds, but there are meds that dehydrate and/or are known to cause kidney stones.
                Ketosis itself is not related to stones at all.
                And as long as you have healthy functional kidneys and don't have a history of stones(and are not on meds that put you at high risk) oxalates in foods are not an issue.


                I have brain issues as well, though not epilepsy, and I have to take two meds for it that are know causers of CalOx stones, and one is specifically to cause my body to be unable to retain water because of elevated brain pressure (it dehydrates me)... that said my doctors are also very positive about me staying Keto as a part of my treatment.
                Staying HFLC has allowed me to cut the amount of meds I take drastically. Seriously drastically... from 3kmg/day to only 500-1kmg day! So... yeah. Keto it is.

                There are some steps that I take to try and prevent crystals from building up in my kidneys so that I hopefully never have a stone event... so far it has worked.
                I avoid foods in the Very High and High oxalate range most of the time. I drink copious amounts of water to keep my kidneys flushed and clean, and I dose all my water with lime, key lime, or calamondin juice (simply because I prefer those to the taste of lemon) in order to keep the acidity of my urine a little high to erode any crystals that might form. And I supplement some potassium citrate.
                This has evidently worked. I get my urine tested regularly at Neurologist appointments and I'm always clear... my doc's are happy but have expressed their surprise, especially during the time I was at an extremely high dose of my meds when I was doing higher carb Paleo.
                Last edited by cori93437; 04-11-2013, 10:14 PM.
                “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                • #23
                  Actually they can never improve until their calcium and magnesium intakes are adequate. Not infrequently physicians tell individuals with kidney stones to avoid all milk, thereby causing stones to form even more rapidly

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                    I'm not familiar with epilepsy meds, but there are meds that dehydrate and/or are known to cause kidney stones.
                    Ketosis itself is not related to stones at all.
                    And as long as you have healthy functional kidneys and don't have a history of stones(and are not on meds that put you at high risk) oxalates in foods are not an issue.


                    I have brain issues as well, though not epilepsy, and I have to take two meds for it that are know causers of CalOx stones, and one is specifically to cause my body to be unable to retain water because of elevated brain pressure (it dehydrates me)... that said my doctors are also very positive about me staying Keto as a part of my treatment.
                    Staying HFLC has allowed me to cut the amount of meds I take drastically. Seriously drastically... from 3kmg/day to only 500-1kmg day! So... yeah. Keto it is.

                    There are some steps that I take to try and prevent crystals from building up in my kidneys so that I hopefully never have a stone event... so far it has worked.
                    I avoid foods in the Very High and High oxalate range most of the time. I drink copious amounts of water to keep my kidneys flushed and clean, and I dose all my water with lime, key lime, or calamondin juice (simply because I prefer those to the taste of lemon) in order to keep the acidity of my urine a little high to erode any crystals that might form. And I supplement some potassium citrate.
                    This has evidently worked. I get my urine tested regularly at Neurologist appointments and I'm always clear... my doc's are happy but have expressed their surprise, especially during the time I was at an extremely high dose of my meds when I was doing higher carb Paleo.
                    Yes, most epilepsy meds do have the same side effects as your brain swelling meds.

                    This brings up an interesting point. While the kids on the keto study were those with refractory epilepsy (meaning the meds didn't stop them) I don't know that any of them were med free.

                    I'm glad you've been able to cut back on your meds. I'm down 25% off both my seizure meds and feeling fine on keto. It's so fun when your body works the way it's supposed to for a change.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      Yes, most epilepsy meds do have the same side effects as your brain swelling meds.

                      This brings up an interesting point. While the kids on the keto study were those with refractory epilepsy (meaning the meds didn't stop them) I don't know that any of them were med free.

                      I'm glad you've been able to cut back on your meds. I'm down 25% off both my seizure meds and feeling fine on keto. It's so fun when your body works the way it's supposed to for a change.
                      I'm still at 100% dose. I've been feeling much better on primal with low carb, mod protein, high fat, but afraid to cut back on meds as I'm still a couple years out of being able to apply for a job in which you need to be seizure free 5 yrs on medication... Only two more years... I've had no issues with stones.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Metric View Post
                        I'm still at 100% dose. I've been feeling much better on primal with low carb, mod protein, high fat, but afraid to cut back on meds as I'm still a couple years out of being able to apply for a job in which you need to be seizure free 5 yrs on medication... Only two more years... I've had no issues with stones.
                        Who says you have to tell the truth? Just sayin'...
                        It's a silly rule and fibbing to get around such a discriminatory rule wouldn't bother me a bit.

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                        • #27
                          You can use this to get Obamacare quick: Affordable Care Act - Online Health Insurance Forms (HA) » National Health Insurance Exchanges

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