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"Calories in / Calories Out" -- Please Stop the Madness

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  • #46
    Kimchi,

    There are a lot of carb defenders here, I'm not one of them. Trust me. Low-carb diets were the only way I ever lost weight without feeling miserable and weak.
    They aren't really miracles, in that, yeah if you go off it you'll gain back the weight, but that's true of any diet and in spite of what some here may tell you there is no conclusive evidence that they're dangerous.
    I'm not saying they're for everyone, but they do work. Yes, it has been proven that they are effective for weightloss, and there is empirical as well as anecdotal evidence that they improve the metabolic profile and symptoms of type 2 diabetes, PCOS, and insulin resistance.

    However, Calories in/Calories out, is true in that to gain weight you have to be eating more calories than you burn. The controversial part is whether or not this fact is useful to someone who needs to lose weight.
    My belief is that it's certainly not a magic formula for two reasons:
    1. It tends to be advice delivered condescendingly to an obese person by someone who as either never struggled with their weight, is fatphobic, or was 'overweight' by 15 or so pounds as a teenager and lost it just by giving up pizza for breakfast. Or any combination of those three.
    2. Living things are essentially giant chemical reaction factories. Our bodies aren't just furnaces that you throw fuel in. For food to be stored as fat, it has to enter your cells and whether or not it does that is determined by the chemical messengers of your body the hormones. Also, 'calorie' is only a unit of energy. Things that aren't food have calories, and there's no such thing as a calorie receptor...so it isn't calories that get stored as fat it's the macromolecules that make up food: carbohydrates, amino acids, and lipids.

    Even on a low-carb diet the amount of you eat does matter. There are some who may be able to eat 6000 calories a day without gaining weight if none of it is starches or sugars, but they're the exception not the rule. This is particularly true for females and older people.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
      A request of my fellow meat and vegi eating buddies:
      lower your carbs to 50g and you lose weight no matter your calorie intake or calorie expenditure.
      Really? Who are these "fellow meat and vegi eating buddies"? Did they really request that you come here and school us?

      CICO is the only thing that works for me. I am 100% primal and doing everything right. I IF every day, have a small eating window, exercise six days a week, make/drink the bone broth, drink the water, lift the heavy things, etc etc etc. I'm pretty much a model Primal person. And I have to fight for every pound I lose. If I lose 2 lbs a month it's a miracle. The weight is not "melting away" or "dropping off" the way so many here seem to experience it. I have to fight my scale tooth and nail every single day. This shit is hard, yo. This is not easy weight loss. Primal actually sucks as a weight loss diet. For ME. Your mileage may vary. I'm in this for the long haul and have no intentions of merely using it as a tool to lose weight....I want to lose, yeah, but I also want the health benefits and am committed. Haven't cheated once....have no need. I like what I'm eating and it could be rice and potatoes or it could be meat with a side of meat. Carbs or no carbs, I HAVE to count calories or primal does not work for me (for weight loss). So I can unequivocally say that your "fellow meat and vegi eating buddies" don't know what they're talking about.
      be the hair that knots with my hair
      - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      primal since oct. 1, 2012

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      • #48
        How are you ever going to gain weight low carb? The fat satiety system in your body is flawless, you become very nauseated when you had too much.
        well then

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        • #49
          this is why MDA forums are boring now.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Gadsie View Post
            How are you ever going to gain weight low carb? The fat satiety system in your body is flawless, you become very nauseated when you had too much.
            Fat is the easiest macronutrient to store as body fat. If you want to gain weight, there is no more efficient way than eating straight fat. It will also probably give you the least desirable body composition because it takes no effort for the body to store. Carbs and protein in surplus have to be converted, which is inefficient and takes you some work to do so.

            Your body's satiety system is designed to gain body fat. Throughout evolution, those that couldn't store fat efficiently starved to death during the long winters and those that put on body fat efficiently survived by staying warmer and better nourished. Also, the feeling of satiety lags behind food intake by about 20 minutes. You are designed to overeat during each sitting because your body is unsure of when your next meal will come. Pair that with the fact that carbohydrate, particularly fruit sugar, better supports thyroid and adrenal function and you'll likely have a higher metabolic rate consuming more of your calories through a carbohydrate-rich diet than one void of your body's most essential energy source (glucose).

            This all adds to why the typical low-carber can never lose those last 20 lbs.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
              Fat is the easiest macronutrient to store as body fat. If you want to gain weight, there is no more efficient way than eating straight fat. It will also probably give you the least desirable body composition because it takes no effort for the body to store. Carbs and protein in surplus have to be converted, which is inefficient and takes you some work to do so.

              Your body's satiety system is designed to gain body fat. Throughout evolution, those that couldn't store fat efficiently starved to death during the long winters and those that put on body fat efficiently survived by staying warmer and better nourished. Also, the feeling of satiety lags behind food intake by about 20 minutes. You are designed to overeat during each sitting because your body is unsure of when your next meal will come. Pair that with the fact that carbohydrate, particularly fruit sugar, better supports thyroid and adrenal function and you'll likely have a higher metabolic rate consuming more of your calories through a carbohydrate-rich diet than one void of your body's most essential energy source (glucose).

              This all adds to why the typical low-carber can never lose those last 20 lbs.
              Well maybe it's just me then but I can't eat a lot of butter
              well then

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              • #52
                Originally posted by jakey View Post
                this is why MDA forums are boring now.
                I think it's getting a lot better. People are acknowledging calories in large numbers and there is a huge portion of people supporting fruit and starch consumption from fruits and tubers. 2 years ago this was almost unheard of. The community has made a lot of progress. We just need to make a clean break from the "Carbohydrate Curve" BS paradigm and simply move to the "whole food" paradigm. It really is that easy.
                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Gadsie View Post
                  Well maybe it's just me then but I can't eat a lot of butter
                  Butter isn't a whole food, it's a cooking fat. You shouldn't be able to eat a lot of butter without getting sick just like you probably wouldn't make it very far taking a tablespoon to a bag of white sugar. They're cooking tools and toppings to real food, not real foods themselves.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                  • #54
                    It's all fine until someone posts about the uncontrollable urge to eat 3 or 4 pieces of fruit, gets called out on willpower by some low carb nazi.... then you realize the OP is eating next to nothing because they are avoiding "carbs" and in an environment where good fats are limited.
                    For every person who can be healthy on a VLC diet, there is a person who just can't eat VLC- be it budget, environment, energy levels. They need to eat some starches and sugars and are not "metabolically sick", lacking of willpower or anything else.

                    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                      It's all fine until someone posts about the uncontrollable urge to eat 3 or 4 pieces of fruit, gets called out on willpower by some low carb nazi.... then you realize the OP is eating next to nothing because they are avoiding "carbs" and in an environment where good fats are limited.
                      For every person who can be healthy on a VLC diet, there is a person who just can't eat VLC- be it budget, environment, energy levels. They need to eat some starches and sugars and are not "metabolically sick", lacking of willpower or anything else.
                      Yep, this is why I hate the Carbohydrate Curve. It creates food anxiety. Normal people should be focusing on simply eating real food, moving around more, picking up something heavy here and there and getting more sun and sleep. And NOTHING MORE. We'll talk macros when you want to get shredded in the weight room. If that isn't your goal, fat/protein/carb ratios shouldn't even be in your vocabulary!!!
                      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        Dude...are you serious? You just told me that the average American is consuming nearly 4,000 CALORIES A DAY, and you go on a soapbox over carbs? Maybe it's not the carbs, but the fact that the average person sitting on their ass all day is eating like a PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER CALORICALLY? Hypocrisy much?

                        The average American is also getting 35% of their daily calories from fats. That is not a low fat/high carb diet. It is a high calorie, low protein diet.

                        Maybe the problem is we're consuming well over double the calories of the people in the Congo while simultaneously being much more sedentary?
                        you might be suffering from soap box blindness too chocotaco,

                        I'll digress;

                        the same website info that everybody else was quoting told you what the average american consumes, not me.

                        I never once in my post claimed any link between carbs and obesity.

                        I never once in my post claimed what type of diet 'this' is.

                        I never said there where any problems

                        All I was mearly trying to point out was that derpamix was falsely using a study to further his point of view (which is that carbs are off the hook when it comes to obesity problems), I was trying to point out that the study actually showed that carbs ARE NOT off the hook and a very much instigated, as is FAT, as the study shows. the following is a summary of the rebuttal to derpamix

                        The USA has a lower percentage of carbs consumed in their diet compared to other countries. but because of the USA's greatly increased calorie intake this actually leads them to eating more carbs per day than most of the rest of the world.

                        have you taken your blind fold off yet chocotaco, we are agreeing/saying the exact same thing.
                        A little primal gem - My Success Story
                        Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                          It's all fine until someone posts about the uncontrollable urge to eat 3 or 4 pieces of fruit, gets called out on willpower by some low carb nazi.... then you realize the OP is eating next to nothing because they are avoiding "carbs" and in an environment where good fats are limited.
                          For every person who can be healthy on a VLC diet, there is a person who just can't eat VLC- be it budget, environment, energy levels. They need to eat some starches and sugars and are not "metabolically sick", lacking of willpower or anything else.
                          I would never say that. I was on that thread too and the post about 'stuffing your face hole' really pissed me off as well.

                          I've had problems with binge eating for years, so I'd never say it's just about willpower. It goes way beyond willpower when dousing food in dishsoap is the only thing that will stop you from eating.

                          Also, although I do feel a low-carb diet can help a lot of people, I acknowledge that it isn't for everyone and I've never called someone who didn't like low-carb 'metabolically sick'. It just wasn't the right plan for them. No skin off my nose. Everyone should eat the diet they feel best on and see the results they want.
                          The same can't be said for the pro-carb people. There's posts all the time about how ketosis will kill you, people who do low carb just lack willpower to control their portions of starches...it just goes on.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
                            you might be suffering from soap box blindness too chocotaco,

                            I'll digress;

                            the same website info that everybody else was quoting told you what the average american consumes, not me.

                            I never once in my post claimed any link between carbs and obesity.

                            I never once in my post claimed what type of diet 'this' is.

                            I never said there where any problems

                            All I was mearly trying to point out was that derpamix was falsely using a study to further his point of view (which is that carbs are off the hook when it comes to obesity problems), I was trying to point out that the study actually showed that carbs ARE NOT off the hook and a very much instigated, as is FAT, as the study shows. the following is a summary of the rebuttal to derpamix

                            The USA has a lower percentage of carbs consumed in their diet compared to other countries. but because of the USA's greatly increased calorie intake this actually leads them to eating more carbs per day than most of the rest of the world.

                            have you taken your blind fold off yet chocotaco, we are agreeing/saying the exact same thing.
                            Are you serious? You took the USA at nearly 4,000 kcal a day, compared it to a more active poverty-stricken country consuming less than 1/2 the calories and for some reason focused on carbohydrate intake. This is a thread where the OP states that calories don't matter at all and as long as you consume <50g/carbs a day you'll lose weight regardless of food intake. You fed the fire.

                            I take two stances on almost every single post I make on this forum:

                            1.) Eat real, whole foods.

                            2.) If you aren't losing weight, you're overconsuming calories vs your TDEE.

                            Exactly what soapbox am I on? What agenda am I pushing here?
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                              Butter isn't a whole food, it's a cooking fat.
                              Butter is nothing but whipped cream (try whipping cream and continue going after it's "done" -- you'll get butter). Eating butter is the same thing as eating cream -- is cream a "whole food"?

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                                Butter is nothing but whipped cream (try whipping cream and continue going after it's "done" -- you'll get butter). Eating butter is the same thing as eating cream -- is cream a "whole food"?
                                Milk is a whole food.

                                Cream is not. It is the fatty non-homogenized stuff that floats to the top of milk.

                                From there, butter is the fat extracted from cream after the water is churned out and some milk solids remain.

                                Butter is less nutrient-dense than maple syrup or molasses. I wouldn't drink a glass of maple syrup or molasses, and I'm guessing you wouldn't, either. It makes just as much sense to eat straight butter.
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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