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"Calories in / Calories Out" -- Please Stop the Madness

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  • Blah blah strawman blah blah paleo blah banality blah blah blah CICO blah Grok blah blah bulletproof blah fat blah blah fructose blah devil blah blah ketones.

    So fucking boring.

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    • I think the first step is to remove the garbage that sends a body mixed signals. So... cake, which has some addictive wheat, sugar, kind of a soothing effect on people sends mixed signals. We eat it for many reasons, and generally not because we are hungry or need nutrients from it.

      So yes, steak is more satisfying than cake because cake is never meant to satisfy our need for nutrition. But once you start lumping all carbs together and eliminate them all, some people start overeating random foods - like steak and fat because they mistake their body asking for some fruits or starch to satisfy need for certain nutrients or fuel with the reason we eat cake.

      You can get to a point where carbs are as satiating as protein or fat. Case in point- how many people eat 500 calories of nuts when what they really needed was a banana. Sometimes carbs hit the spot.

      We equate carbs with junk food that also have a heaping helping of fat that makes them palatable and addicting.

      For most people, eliminate the processed crap and anything your body can't handle (gluten, dairy), then learn to listen to what your body wants in terms of whole foods. It's not better to eat 16 ounces of steak versus 2 sweet potatoes. It's not better to eat 3 apples versus a tablespoon of butter. The best path is to give your body what it is craving and not try and "work around" cravings for basically healthy foods because someone says "fruit is bad" or "eating fat is bad". But make sure you actually need it.

      In the past 3 months, I've gotten really astute to listening to my body and determining what macros I need and it kind of cycles. I've had a lot of carbs this week, now I want fat. Last week, I ate a ton of protein. It's such a different feeling from cravings in the past for junk foods.

      http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
      Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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      • Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
        Huh? How's telling someone to eat less is "putting more blame on her"?

        If she wants to stop growing fatter she'll have to do something, change something in her life. Eating less and moving more sounds like an excellent start.
        Except she's likely already starving and listless because her adipose tissue is insatiable and her satiety signaling mechanisms are broken. And she's depleted in essential nutrients and will never feel full.

        See the following diagrams:

        The Black Box: A NEW Way of Thinking about Fat Loss | Escape From Caloriegate
        The Champagne of Beards

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        • double post. so sorry.
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
            CICO dogma, however, says that it's simple to lose weight. Just do the math. Buy a food scale. Calculate your BMR, look at the calorie output meter on the treadmill, and eat a little less than you expend, and you'll lose weight.
            That's a strawman.

            CICO (in the people-with-more-than-half-a-brain version) says that the ONLY way to lose weight is to output more energy than you intake. The problem is that your energy output varies, a lot, and outside of a metabolic ward it's really hard to track it properly (BMR calculations are pretty useless). That insistence, while obvious, is necessary because there are people (look around on this very board) who'll tell you that with proper macro ratios (or magic protein powder, or fat, or something) calories do not matter at all.

            One consequence of CICO is that "eat less" advice IS GUARANTEED TO WORK if you're willing to go into starvation mode. Issues of willpower and health aside, it's physical inevitability that at some level of "eat less" you will lose weight. That's a useful characteristic, rare in the dieting world :-)

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            • Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
              LOL. Your dislike of science shows :-) Guess you never heard of the law of the conservation of energy :-D

              It's not hard at all to gain weight while eating <50g carbs / day.

              Agreed!!!!! I've been eating less than 50 grams of carbs with plenty of fat for over a year. If I don't count calories then I do gain serious amounts of weight!!!!

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              • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                Except she's likely already starving and listless because her adipose tissue is insatiable and her satiety signaling mechanisms are broken. And she's depleted in essential nutrients and will never feel full.
                That's lots of handwaving :-) Also a nicely circular argument: you start by assuming her metabolism is broken and then go: Hey! Her metabolism is broken!

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                • Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                  That's a strawman.

                  CICO (in the people-with-more-than-half-a-brain version) says that the ONLY way to lose weight is to output more energy than you intake. The problem is that your energy output varies, a lot, and outside of a metabolic ward it's really hard to track it properly (BMR calculations are pretty useless). That insistence, while obvious, is necessary because there are people (look around on this very board) who'll tell you that with proper macro ratios (or magic protein powder, or fat, or something) calories do not matter at all.

                  One consequence of CICO is that "eat less" advice IS GUARANTEED TO WORK if you're willing to go into starvation mode. Issues of willpower and health aside, it's physical inevitability that at some level of "eat less" you will lose weight. That's a useful characteristic, rare in the dieting world :-)
                  It's not a strawman at all. CICO is an accurate description, but a horrible prescription. And you're agreeing with everything I said. Of course eating less will work if you're willing to starve yourself completely. But that hyperbole aside, CICO dogma has proven to be a failure for the millions of overweight people. Nobody's arguing that we can make energy out of fairy dust here.

                  Again, CICO = description, CICO =/= prescription
                  The Champagne of Beards

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                  • Calling CICO "a dogma" is like claiming that the law of gravitation is "a dogma"!
                    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                    - Schopenhauer

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                    • I'm nervous to even speak up because everyone in this thread seems so angry... but I can't help feeling like this argument is pointless.

                      Let's be honest, most people who have been paleo/primal for a long time have stuck with it because it's given them results -- whether those results came for 20g of carbs or 150g of carbs. All of your results should speak for themselves. If you're in great shape, and you got there from doing vlc, then clearly vlc works! If you're in great shape and you got there from eating moderate fat, moderate carb, then awesome... that shows that moderate fat/moderate carb works, too!

                      Unless one of you is in considerably better shape than everyone else, and have attained it with minimal effort, then I don't think anyone's got any right to say everyone else is wrong.

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                      • Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                        That's lots of handwaving :-) Also a nicely circular argument: you start by assuming her metabolism is broken and then go: Hey! Her metabolism is broken!
                        Isn't the fact that she's overweight a demonstration of a broken metabolism? Unless she's planning on competing in sumo...
                        The Champagne of Beards

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                        • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          It's not a strawman at all. CICO is an accurate description, but a horrible prescription.
                          I don't know -- horrible in which way? Most actual "prescriptions" of that sort are not CICO at all -- they pull an arbitrary number out of thin air -- say 2000 cal/day -- and say that you need to eat, say 1,500 cal/day and that will make you lose weight. This is nonsense, of course, and it's not CICO either (because it ignores the CO part).

                          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          CICO dogma has proven to be a failure for the millions of overweight people.
                          Every weight-loss advice has proven to be a failure :-/ There's nothing that's easy and works for everyone.

                          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          Nobody's arguing that we can make energy out of fairy dust here.
                          Actually, NOT make energy out of fairy dust :-D But yeah, people do, exhibit A: the OP of this very thread.
                          Last edited by Lumifer; 04-04-2013, 11:20 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                            Isn't the fact that she's overweight a demonstration of a broken metabolism?
                            No, not at all. It's *normal* metabolism to accumulate fat reserves in times of plenty.

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                            • Originally posted by PrimalStudent View Post
                              I'm nervous to even speak up because everyone in this thread seems so angry... but I can't help feeling like this argument is pointless.

                              Let's be honest, most people who have been paleo/primal for a long time have stuck with it because it's given them results -- whether those results came for 20g of carbs or 150g of carbs. All of your results should speak for themselves. If you're in great shape, and you got there from doing vlc, then clearly vlc works! If you're in great shape and you got there from eating moderate fat, moderate carb, then awesome... that shows that moderate fat/moderate carb works, too!

                              Unless one of you is in considerably better shape than everyone else, and have attained it with minimal effort, then I don't think anyone's got any right to say everyone else is wrong.
                              Nah. That just makes too much sense. If everyone was to agree with it, the existence of this forum would pretty much be pointless.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PrimalStudent View Post
                                I'm nervous to even speak up because everyone in this thread seems so angry... but I can't help feeling like this argument is pointless.

                                Let's be honest, most people who have been paleo/primal for a long time have stuck with it because it's given them results -- whether those results came for 20g of carbs or 150g of carbs. All of your results should speak for themselves. If you're in great shape, and you got there from doing vlc, then clearly vlc works! If you're in great shape and you got there from eating moderate fat, moderate carb, then awesome... moderate fat/moderate carb works, too!

                                Unless one of you is in considerably better shape than everyone else, and have attained it with minimal effort, then I don't think anyone's got any right to say everyone else is wrong.
                                This. And I feel like tools like "The Carbohydrate Curve", while technically inaccurate, are useful for people who don't have any experience with nutrition. Going from fast food burgers, fries and a coke to steak and salads will do wonders for someone, and once they understand more and can put new knowledge to use, they already have lost a chunk of weight. They can know how it feels to run mostly on fat, then try upping carbs, or going even more VLC.

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