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  • ketosis = oxidized lipoproteins?

    Just read this while trying to understand why people say ketosis is bad...

    “The longer you stay in ketosis, you turn yourselves into fat magnets, and you accumulate body fat more readily,” Dr. Barry Sears of the Zone diet told the same debate. “The longer you stay in ketosis, you begin to oxidize lipoproteins, so these are long-term consequences which begin to explain why high protein diets fail.”

    Been primal for about a month now. The thing I like about it is I no longer have the bloating and abdominal discomfort from trying to do a high calorie diet with wholegrains, adequate protein and about 15% fat. I no longer feel the need to be in the kitchen 6 times a day cooking, now only 3 primal meals with a snack. I love it.

    But if it does indeed cause lipoprotein oxidation isn't that a risk for arterial plaque diseases?

  • #2
    What evidence does he provide to support his assertion that long-term ketosis = oxidizing lipoproteins?

    I've looked at the lipoprotein issue and saw no reference at all to ketosis. Moreover, ketosis is known to be anti-inflammatory in the body, exactly the opposite of what he's claiming.

    Finally, the issue of oxidized lipoprotein always refers to 'low density' LDL. However, I eat 20g of carbs a day or fewer [for years] and am probably always in ketosis, but my LDL has been measured (VAP test) as 100% Pattern A (large, fluffy), so ketosis doesn't seem to be oxidizing my LDL at all.

    I also question his confusion of ketosis with 'high protein' diets. Ketosis comes from limiting carbs. My protein intake is consistent with my body's requirements, nothing higher. Ketosis does not automatically mean 'high protein.'

    I suggest this is just another attempt to demonize ketosis.

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    • #3
      Sounds like junk science to me. Unless he has some evidence that raw vegans haven't unearthed yet, I am doubtful that's true. There are, however, other reasons to avoid staying in long-term ketosis. Sanity being one of them.
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      “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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      • #4
        I think a person could stay in ketosis indefinitely and do just fine. The problem is, that person has to be committed to ketosis and not prone to eating cheats. That was the problem with Atkins, people got into ketosis, did fine, lost weight, but then started flirting with carbs and gained it all right back.

        I doubt if being in ketosis 'ruins' or changes anything permanently, but except for certain medical conditions, there really is no need to subject yourself to a long-term ketogenic diet. It's best to learn what foods you can eat for long term weightloss/maintenance and stick to them. Some people have done amazingly well on keto diets, though.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by j3nn View Post
          Sounds like junk science to me. Unless he has some evidence that raw vegans haven't unearthed yet, I am doubtful that's true. There are, however, other reasons to avoid staying in long-term ketosis. Sanity being one of them.
          Except that Nora Gedgaudas has shown time and time again in her research that those who run off of ketones at least occasionally tend to be at lower risk for developing Alzheimer's and dementia, as well as those in ketosis seemed to perform better than those operating off of glucose in a variety of tests designed to measure brain functioning.

          Not saying that constitutes proof, but it's in stark contrast to your bold claim.
          "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
            ...at least occasionally tend to be...
            That's just another way of saying "sometimes it randomly happens".

            We are (or should be) interested in causal relationships, not noise.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by emmie View Post
              Finally, the issue of oxidized lipoprotein always refers to 'low density' LDL. However, I eat 20g of carbs a day or fewer [for years] and am probably always in ketosis, but my LDL has been measured (VAP test) as 100% Pattern A (large, fluffy), so ketosis doesn't seem to be oxidizing my LDL at all.
              Some confusion here. First, LDL is low-density lipoproteins -- the current medical thinking is that only oxidized low-density lipoproteins, LDL, are dangerous.

              Second, large and fluffy LDL are just *less prone* to oxidation. Small dense LDL oxidizes more easily, that's all. It is NOT the case that pattern B is already oxidized and pattern A is not oxidized.

              I agree that proteins have nothing to do with this. Ketotic diets are high-fat diets.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                Except that Nora Gedgaudas has shown time and time again in her research that those who run off of ketones at least occasionally tend to be at lower risk for developing Alzheimer's and dementia, as well as those in ketosis seemed to perform better than those operating off of glucose in a variety of tests designed to measure brain functioning.

                Not saying that constitutes proof, but it's in stark contrast to your bold claim.
                But I wasn't speaking of literal insanity, hence the wink. I was referring to the monotony that tends to accompany a very restrictive diet which can make people go "crazy" with food boredom. If people were completely psychologically and, sometimes physically, satisfied with such a restrictive diet, Atkins and vegan diets would have a higher adherence rate. They don't. Neither does Paleo, to the best my observance. I don't know what the turnover rate is exactly, but I see many, many people who have abandoned it in favor of more variety. I'd estimate that at any given time the world's population of strict Paleo eaters is under 5% (not counting breast feeding infants) and the ones who stick with it for more than a year are far fewer than that.
                | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                  That's just another way of saying "sometimes it randomly happens".

                  We are (or should be) interested in causal relationships, not noise.
                  You read that wrong. I'm pretty sure he was saying that people are in ketosis occasionally tend to be at lower risk for certain diseases.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
                    You read that wrong. I'm pretty sure he was saying that people are in ketosis occasionally tend to be at lower risk for certain diseases.
                    Ah, maybe. It not that much better, though, because "in ketosis occasionally" and "tend to be at lower risk" are both quite vague handwavy phrases.

                    Any links to this research?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                      Ah, maybe. It not that much better, though, because "in ketosis occasionally" and "tend to be at lower risk" are both quite vague handwavy phrases.

                      Any links to this research?
                      Nora Gedgaudas has an entire book called "Primal Body, Primal Mind."

                      You should read it.
                      "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                        Nora Gedgaudas has an entire book called "Primal Body, Primal Mind."

                        You should read it.
                        I looked at her website. I was less than impressed.

                        Links to research?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                          I looked at her website. I was less than impressed.

                          Links to research?
                          I was never a fan of her blog so much.

                          But her book contained a ton of references that can be traced back. She did her research on the topic.

                          Nora at the Ancestral Health Symposium: http://vimeo.com/52876035

                          http://vimeo.com/27961539

                          Also, this: Neuroprotective and disease-modifying effects of the ketogenic diet

                          Edit: And this - http://catalyticlongevity.org/prepub...;1][1].pdf

                          Edit again: This too - http://link.springer.com/chapter/10....6-4_15?LI=true
                          Last edited by Drumroll; 03-30-2013, 01:36 PM.
                          "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                            But her book contained a ton of references that can be traced back. She did her research on the topic.
                            Maybe. But in the links you provided, nothing supports your assertion:

                            Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                            Except that Nora Gedgaudas has shown time and time again in her research that those who run off of ketones at least occasionally tend to be at lower risk for developing Alzheimer's and dementia

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                              Maybe. But in the links you provided, nothing supports your assertion:
                              You're saying you aren't interested in reading the book, then you're complaining that the references are in the book.

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