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  • #31
    Originally posted by emmie View Post
    Finally, the issue of oxidized lipoprotein always refers to 'low density' LDL. However, I eat 20g of carbs a day or fewer [for years] and am probably always in ketosis, but my LDL has been measured (VAP test) as 100% Pattern A (large, fluffy), so ketosis doesn't seem to be oxidizing my LDL at all.
    But does a VAP test distinguish between an LDL and an oxidized LDL?

    Originally posted by otzi View Post
    I doubt if being in ketosis 'ruins' or changes anything permanently, but except for certain medical conditions
    What sort of medical conditions? My biggest fear with primal is developing kidney disease, I know kidney disease has to start from infection, toxic exposure, genetics and various autoimmune diseases after which time protein consumption is a problem but my grandmother died of kidney disease and apart from cakes and scones she basically ate vegetables, fruit and some meat, all grown on their farm the old fashioned way. OR my arteries are going to clog up because of the saturated fat which we are taught in nutrition is the cause of arterial disease. Also even though I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit I'm still worried about bowel cancer which took my grandfathers life, don't know what he ate though.

    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    Even if ketosis MAY improve your chances of avoiding alzheimers, so what? Constant ketosis will probably end up killing you dead years before alzheimers and dementia set in.
    Why do you say ketosis would kill one dead? So far the only thing I think is definite is the whole ketoacidosis problem but I don't think its relevant with lots of alkalising vegetables and fruit?

    Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
    "MSG is an excitotoxin and always does some degree of neurological damage."
    Why do you not believe that MSG is bad for you? If it's because of the argument that the chinese and Japanese use MSG in everything and don't suffer from multiple sclerosis or other neurological disorders, I think over there maybe they use the old fashioned made MSG, I think everywhere else they use a different form from mass production using other raw materials, I can't remember exactly, it's just something I read somewhere, like originally it was made from seaweed or something? kombu??? but the stuff used everywhere else is made from... gosh I cant remember now but apparently it was an easier way to mass produce it...

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
      Refuting Nora with carbsane?

      However, I did find that there were several assertions made in her book that made me think 'citation needed. And there never was one.
      Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

      Griff's cholesterol primer
      5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
      Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
      TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
      bloodorchid is always right

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      • #33
        Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
        Refuting Nora with carbsane?
        Doesn't matter if Evelyn's the messenger. If Nora's actually written that all body fat comes from glucose, it hurts her credibility.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
          How is this in any way shape or form "alarmist"? The "Trust no one" comment was a joke ffs.
          No, I didn't mean the "trust no one" comment. I meant things like this:

          "Anyone providing “education” regarding what it is you need to be healthy who comes from a mainstream perspective will either directly or indirectly be furthering the financial interests of various multinational corporations, mainstream medicine and/or pharmaceutical companies. This is not paranoia or cynicism…it is reality."

          "Medical doctors—although often well-meaning– may be the singularly least qualified persons to offer nutritional recommendations. ... hospitals are profit-oriented institutions…and the advice you get there may not be in your own best interest ... The same may unfortunately be said for many “natural health care providers” that are often as beholding to the interests of neutraceutical companies as allopathic physicians are beholding to drug companies. ... Conventional nutritionists and dieticians ... are bound to the dictates of the unfounded and enormously unscientific USDA Food Pyramid. However well-meaning, these folks have been “indoctrinated” and fully trained by a complex, very corporate-driven system determined to retain considerable political and economic power. Finally, the media on nearly all fronts are utterly bound by the interests of their advertisers"

          So she went down the list and declared that no one -- NO ONE AT ALL -- is to be trusted. That's generally the first step of a cult indoctrination -- everyone, literally everyone lies to you, only I tell you the truth...

          Well, Nora, taking your advice to heart -- why should I trust *you*, then?

          Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
          Perhaps you would care to refute with facts any of her wildly exaggerated and willfully disregarding of the truth statements. To me this looks like a basic paleo 101 template (dare I even say blueprint).
          Ah, is there a sniff of sacrilege in the air? :-D

          About that trans-fat in the single serving of fries. Lessee, one serving of McDonalds fries contains ...oops. No trans fats at all (Nutrition Facts and Analysis for McDonald's side order: French Fries). Maybe Wendy's? Nope, nothing. Burger King? Oh, finally, here are some. 4.7g of total trans fats per a medium order of fries. Cool. Now, I don't think trans fats are heavy metals, they don't bioaccumulate. So I'm racking my imagination for a plausible biological mechanism that would allow the ingestion of 5g of trans fats to cause "chaotic effects" in my body one year after I ate those fries. Could you help?

          About MSG, well, she's just repeating stupid things. I'm too lazy to go into details, but (1) Japan; (2) Glutamates are widespread (meat, fish, eggs, etc.) and your blood has some, always; (3) People actually ran double-blind placebo-controlled studies and found the effect of MSG to be... zilch.

          About humans being a creature of the Ice Age, it's silly. Look at the rate of genetic drift and look at how long did the Ice Age (technically it's called a glacial) last. Don't forget that Nora herself says "All of us ... are 99.99% identical to humans living 40,000 to 100,000 years ago" -- so what about humans who lived before the Ice Age (say, 150,000 years ago), are we not 99.99% identical to them, too?
          Last edited by Lumifer; 04-01-2013, 10:41 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
            Refuting Nora with carbsane?

            However, I did find that there were several assertions made in her book that made me think 'citation needed. And there never was one.
            Yeah! What is with that Evelyn person? There is a serious rant factor to everything she says.

            She is basically saying that Nora only has "certifications" and not official university "degrees" in the areas in which she practices. Given how much "real" MDs are really taught about nutrition, I don't consider that to be a problem. And Nora never represents her education as anything other than what it is.

            Evelyn's other rant was about an area in which she and Nora disagree but Evelyn just claims she's right, Nora's wrong and that's all there is to it. I guess that's the point of having your own blog. You get to be like that if you want.

            As to Nora's work being in need of more citations, this is something she herself has acknowledged and has done a lot to correct in the recently released updated version of her book. That's feedback she took to heart and appreciated.

            Evelyn is just ranting because that's what Evelyn does regarding anything involving lower carbs.

            Comment


            • #36
              Oxidized lipoproteins...oh goodness.

              Americans are really obsessed with "science".

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                No, I didn't mean the "trust no one" comment. I meant things like this:

                "Anyone providing “education” regarding what it is you need to be healthy who comes from a mainstream perspective will either directly or indirectly be furthering the financial interests of various multinational corporations, mainstream medicine and/or pharmaceutical companies. This is not paranoia or cynicism…it is reality."

                "Medical doctors—although often well-meaning– may be the singularly least qualified persons to offer nutritional recommendations. ... hospitals are profit-oriented institutions…and the advice you get there may not be in your own best interest ... The same may unfortunately be said for many “natural health care providers” that are often as beholding to the interests of neutraceutical companies as allopathic physicians are beholding to drug companies. ... Conventional nutritionists and dieticians ... are bound to the dictates of the unfounded and enormously unscientific USDA Food Pyramid. However well-meaning, these folks have been “indoctrinated” and fully trained by a complex, very corporate-driven system determined to retain considerable political and economic power. Finally, the media on nearly all fronts are utterly bound by the interests of their advertisers"

                So she went down the list and declared that no one -- NO ONE AT ALL -- is to be trusted.

                Ah, is there a sniff of sacrilege in the air? :-D

                About that trans-fat in the single serving of fries. Lessee, one serving of McDonalds fries contains ...oops. No trans fats at all (Nutrition Facts and Analysis for McDonald's side order: French Fries). Maybe Wendy's? Nope, nothing. Burger King? Oh, finally, here are some. 4.7g of total trans fats per a medium order of fries. Cool. Now, I don't think trans fats are heavy metals, they don't bioaccumulate. So I'm racking my imagination for a plausible biological mechanism that would allow the ingestion of 5g of trans fats to cause "chaotic effects" in my body one year after I ate those fries. Could you help?

                About MSG, well, she's just repeating stupid things. I'm too lazy to go into details, but (1) Japan; (2) Glutamates are widespread (meat, fish, eggs, etc.) and your blood has some, always; (3) People actually ran double-blind placebo-controlled studies and found the effect of MSG to be... zilch.

                About humans being a creature of the Ice Age, it's silly. Look at the rate of genetic drift and look at how long did the Ice Age (technically it's called a glacial) last. Don't forget that Nora herself says "All of us ... are 99.99% identical to humans living 40,000 to 100,000 years ago" -- so what about humans who lived before the Ice Age (say, 150,000 years ago), are we not 99.99% identical to them, too?
                She isn't saying that doctors are evil and part of a conspiracy, just that that are ill informed and that the health care industry is an industry. And that agribusiness pulls the strings that make things like the beloved food pyramid. This is not over the top into the land of tinfoil hats at all. This is just being realistic. A lot of people who instinctively trust the USDA recommendations just because of their official government status and figure that this must be the latest in medical research need to hear this message. This is not cult indoctrination, it is getting people out of a "just believe and don't think" sheep mode.

                Okay so, McDs got PC and went trans fat free. And she never said 5 grams cause chaotic effects. Only that ingested transfat is very difficult for the body to get rid of being an unnatural substance and that the effects of transfats are "chaotic". Look into her work on neurofeedback. It is nothing short of amazing what she has been able to do with a combination of diet and neurofeedback for clients suffering from everyhting from ADHD to autism, to epilepsy. When she uses the term "chaotic" she is using it in this context.

                MSG is a known neurotoxin which is known to cause migraines. My neurologist (who has a "real" MD) also told me to avoid it like the plague due to my epilepsy.

                And if you want more info about the ice age evolution, I suggest you spring for a copy of her book. It's all in there complete with charts, graphs, and lot of citations.
                Last edited by Paleobird; 04-01-2013, 01:10 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                  She isn't saying that doctors are evil and part of a conspiracy
                  Neither do I accuse her of that. However she's quite adamant that they CANNOT BE TRUSTED.

                  Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                  And she never said 5 grams cause chaotic effects.
                  Why, let's look at the quote with the interesting parts bolded for ease of reading:

                  "A single serving of trans-fat in French fries or chips may take up to two years for one’s body to fully eliminate, and its biological effects on your system in the meantime are chaotic..."

                  I feel she's perfectly clear. It's nonsense, of course, but that's truly, actually what she wrote.

                  Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                  MSG is a known neurotoxin which is known to cause migraines. My neurologist (who has a "real" MD) also told me to avoid it like the plague due to my epilepsy.
                  Did he also tell you to avoid meat, fish, eggs, etc. which have high levels of glutamates? Why not?

                  And why isn't Japan the nation of brain-dead zombies by now?

                  Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                  And if you want more info about the ice age evolution, I suggest you spring for a copy of her book. It's all in there complete with charts, graphs, and lot of citations.
                  As I said before, I'll pass.

                  To relate a known anecdote,
                  One woman wrote to Walter Hines Page: "Sir: You sent back last week a story of mine. I know that you did not read the story, for as a test I had pasted together page 18, 19, and 20, and the story came back with these pages still pasted; and so I know you are a fraud and turn down stories without reading them." Page answered, "Madame: At breakfast when I open an egg I don't have to eat the whole egg to discover it is bad."

                  :-P

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    They can not be trusted because they either have a financial motive (e.g. agribusiness running govt. orgs such as USDA) or because they are ill informed such as the minimal time spent on nutrition by MDs. That's not alarmism. That's reality.

                    on MSG from Livestong:
                    MSG is a well-known compound in research circles used to fatten up rats for experimentation, because it dramatically increases insulin production. According to "Contemporary Nutrition," the food additive industry readily admits that MSG has addictive properties and can cause people to gain weight, but they justify its use by claiming that this can be beneficial to elderly persons who are sometimes malnourished. Glutamate, the main component of MSG, is the primary excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain, and it has been linked to neurological symptoms when taken in excess.

                    Neurotransmitters, such as glutamate, are important for chemical communication in the brain, where they are very carefully balanced and managed. Excessive quantities of a neurotransmitter, however, can cause it to become an excitotoxin, a substance that over-excites cells to the point of damage. According to an article published in a 2001 issue of "Archives of Neurology," when the balance of glutamate is upset this substance can become neurotoxic, leading to enzymatic cascades resulting in cell death. Neurological conditions that some researchers claim may be associated with MSG include migraines, seizures, autism, attention deficit disorder, hyperactivity, Alzheimer's disease, Lou Gehrig's disease, multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's disease."
                    Neurological Effect Of Monosodium Glutamate | LIVESTRONG.COM

                    When Nora uses the word "chaotic", she is speaking in the neurological sense and speaking from experience. And is anybody here arguing that transfats are good for you? No. She is just presenting one of the reasons (the neurological angle) why they are bad. Given that the brain is mostly composed of fat, I would think it would be perfectly possible for that to be a place where the fake trans fats might accumulate and do a lot of harm.


                    You're entitled to be closed mined if you choose to be, but, IMO, it's your loss.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      Glutamate, the main component of MSG, is the primary excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain, and it has been linked to neurological symptoms when taken in excess.
                      Nora says the only good level of glutamate is zero, right? Anything higher than zero "does some degree of neurological damage".

                      Okay, where do we find glutamate except in that devils-spawn MSG? Why, a quick look at Wikipedia tells us that "All meats, poultry, fish, eggs, dairy products, and kombu are excellent sources of glutamic acid."

                      Oops. :-D

                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      When Nora uses the word "chaotic", she is speaking in the neurological sense and speaking from experience.
                      I beg to disagree. I think the proper term is "scaremongering". In simpler terms, she tries to frighten people with a pile of organic bovine excrement :-D

                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      You're entitled to be closed mined if you choose to be, but, IMO, it's your loss.
                      I'm cursed (or maybe blessed, opinions vary) with a highly sensitive BS meter. Especially when people try to use lots of fancy scientific-y words because I usually know what these words actually mean. Nora triggers my BS meter quite strongly. So I'll pass and accept the possible loss.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                        "Medical doctors—although often well-meaning– may be the singularly least qualified persons to offer nutritional recommendations. ... hospitals are profit-oriented institutions…and the advice you get there may not be in your own best interest ... The same may unfortunately be said for many “natural health care providers” that are often as beholding to the interests of neutraceutical companies as allopathic physicians are beholding to drug companies. ... Conventional nutritionists and dieticians ... are bound to the dictates of the unfounded and enormously unscientific USDA Food Pyramid. However well-meaning, these folks have been “indoctrinated” and fully trained by a complex, very corporate-driven system determined to retain considerable political and economic power. Finally, the media on nearly all fronts are utterly bound by the interests of their advertisers"

                        So she went down the list and declared that no one -- NO ONE AT ALL -- is to be trusted.
                        She's correct though.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Lumifer View Post
                          Nora says the only good level of glutamate is zero, right? Anything higher than zero "does some degree of neurological damage".

                          Okay, where do we find glutamate except in that devils-spawn MSG? Why, a quick look at Wikipedia tells us that "All meats, poultry, fish, eggs, dairy products, and kombu are excellent sources of glutamic acid."


                          I'm cursed (or maybe blessed, opinions vary) with a highly sensitive BS meter. Especially when people try to use lots of fancy scientific-y words because I usually know what these words actually mean. Nora triggers my BS meter quite strongly. So I'll pass and accept the possible loss.
                          You're taking comments she made about MSG and trans fats under the heading of "one of the worst mistake that one can make while dieting is to believe that junk food 'in moderation' is OK" totally out of context. In that context saying all MSG is bad MSG makes sense. And there is no real safe amount of trans fat.

                          She sees neurological consequences in her clients for every dietary misstep as do I, (e.g. seizures after indulging in coffee or alcohol.) Some people have said that I am needlessly strict with my diet but I don't think so.

                          Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                          She's correct though.
                          Exactly.

                          The funny thing is, Lumifer, from having read several of your other posts recently and agreeing with them all, I really think you would enjoy Nora's book.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                            Americans are really obsessed with "science".
                            How can Americans be really obsessed with science, when most of them can't convert a fraction to a decimal? Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a snob, but really, without basic math skills, you're flying blind.
                            "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                            B*tch-lite

                            Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Lumifer: I have access to scientific journals for free. If you really want to read the paper, I'll get it for you but otherwise I'm not going to waste my time downloading it.

                              Your assessment of the finding is true, although solid proof that ketosis prevents AD will be very hard to get because:
                              1. Good luck funding that kind of study.
                              2. Good luck getting people to adhere to a ketogeneic diet, even only intermittently. The only group I can think you might have a snowball's chance in hell of getting to are bodybuilders.
                              I'm not saying I believe it's true. It'd be nice if it were, but there isn't enough evidence either way.

                              Yeah, Nora's claims are exaggerated but so are Mark's, and Robb Wolf's, and every person who's written a nutrition book for lay audeiences.
                              I'm not saying trust her implicitly, but I've read her book and nothing she said was anything more than Primal 101.
                              Same for the list you mentioned from her website. Especially the part you highlighed about labels like 'natural' and 'organic' being useless. I mean...they pretty much are.


                              Zach: "Ketosis will kill you dead"-Citation?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by s-piper View Post
                                Lumifer: I have access to scientific journals for free. If you really want to read the paper, I'll get it for you but otherwise I'm not going to waste my time downloading it.
                                REALLY???? Ooooooh yes. I want to read it even if Lumifer doesn't. The neuro-protective effects of ketosis are rather important to me. I would be forever in your debt if you would download that one for me. Pretty please?

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