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Bread and The Bible

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    • Originally posted by 0Angel0 View Post
      This! Nature is awe inspiring all on it's own. I don't need to be religious to be amazed by a thunderstorm or rendered speechless by a sunset. Studying how it all works just makes it take on a whole new level of awesome. The natural doesn't need a supernatural explanation to be any more splendid than it already is.
      In fact, a supernatural explanation pales in comparison to the wonder of the real thing. This was the point of Richard Dawkins' book Unweaving The Rainbow. I highly recommend it.

      Derpy- You sound depressed dude. But you're an atheist whether you hate the connotation of it or not. And your sympathies towards certain absurdities are misguided.
      The Champagne of Beards

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      • Originally posted by Mr. Slate View Post
        RichMahogany attempted to answer the original question with his best try......but you have failed....try again
        Originally posted by Mr. Slate View Post
        RichMahogany attempted to answer the original question with his best try......but you have failed....try again
        Oh look, the talking parrot is back. Squuuuuaaaaaaak! Try again!

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        • I think that it's simply part of human nature. My God is better than yours. My belief or lack there of is better than yours. My diet.........and many other aspects of life.
          I think this world would have been a better place if we were more accepting of others and their choices.

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          • Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
            You can claim not to be a zealot, but when talking about religion you intentionally downplay it by calling it a fairy tale, or some condescending effect thereof. I'm not religious, or a believer, but I don't understand why you can't have respect for someone else as a human being not to think of them as a lesser person. It's pretty disrespectful to see the way atheists address everyone religious as if believing in nothing automatically makes them a better person.
            Hey Derp, my apologies, it just occurred to me that I called you a "her" in a previous comment. I think I just assumed that was you in your avatar. Sorry about that!

            Regarding the bold bit -- I agree with the spirit of what you say, though I'll point out that everyone considers their own beliefs to be "right", otherwise they wouldn't believe them. Think about it... if you thought someone else's belief about something was better than yours, then you'd believe that instead. However, it's how we act in regard to these differing beliefs that you're addressing, and that's where I really agree with you: people should recognize that they may be wrong, and that we're all on our own paths. No one is superior to anyone else because of the conclusions they've come to about the universe.

            So cheers to you, and to this fun discussion, but please stop painting this horrible picture of atheists as total assholes. I can't speak for all atheists, but we're not all what you seem to think we are!

            This is what I really wanted to address though...

            Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
            Reality is depressing, what's wrong with wanting to believe in a little magic? I'm sure all of you have experienced some from of phenomena that you couldn't explain. Sure, it's likely you can explain away everything via some chemical reaction, but it's comforting to have an imagination and let your mind wander a bit to traverse unknown terrain that you can't explain away with science.

            Have you ever fallen madly in love with one person out of billions and thought you saw the face of God in them? That first glance when you lock eyes with them, it's kind of magical. Dunno just rambling now.
            I'm going to agree and disagree with you. I'm depressed too. I've dealt with terrible depression that's had me close to suicide on a number of occasions for almost 20 years. I've only barely hung on at times. So I agree that reality can be depressing, but that does not necessarily mean that reality is depressing. It's all in how you perceive it.

            Reality is also marvelous, and fascinating, and beautiful beyond measure. Music and art, love and friendships, or the big stuff like the unbelievable complexity of life, the strangeness of the quantum world, the unfathomable vastness of the universe, the mysteries of consciousness, and so on.

            Don't make the mistake of thinking that awe and appreciation for the wonders of reality go away just because a person doesn't think a god made it. The universe is a pretty amazing show whether it has a director or not.

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            • Lumifer -- that cartoon was awesome.

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              • Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                I'm simply defending other people for their right to choose.
                I don't think any reasonable person here would debate that. I consider religion rather silly, but I absolutely support people's personal freedom to choose to worship as they please, so long as it doesn't infringe on others. I consider myself an atheist, on Dawkins' spectrum I would be a de facto atheist, meaning I don't claim to know for certain, but I consider the possibility of a higher being to be so improbable that I live my life under the assumption that there is no god.

                Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                Oh look, the talking parrot is back. Squuuuuaaaaaaak! Try again!
                Seriously, his troll job was off to a good start with the original post, but I'm now quite sure OP has an IQ in the double digits

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                • Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                  You can claim not to be a zealot, but when talking about religion you intentionally downplay it by calling it a fairy tale, or some condescending effect thereof. I'm not religious, or a believer, but I don't understand why you can't have respect for someone else as a human being not to think of them as a lesser person. It's pretty disrespectful to see the way atheists address everyone religious as if believing in nothing automatically makes them a better person lel.
                  <3
                  "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                  In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                  - Ray Peat

                  Comment


                  • I don't want to pick on anyone's posts specifically, but what really irritates me about atheism is that:

                    1) Religious people are regarded as naive or weak.
                    1) The "God" they don't believe in is invariably the same "God" that religious people do believe in. This is going out on a whim, but could you entertain the idea that something exists beyond this concrete boundaries of religion?

                    I sympathise with religious people, and with atheists. We're all looking for answers. I became atheist at the age of 13, and remained atheist for 10 years because it answered all my questions. Then, when the questions started again, I had to investigate, and adjust my beliefs. The only thing I have found satisfactory in explaining life is Quantum Physics, and an understanding that the Bible is a jargonic text, never meant to be interpreted literally. If you read the bible with the meaning of the words in mind it actually makes sense. Examples: Adam = man, Eve = Life (Man develops self awareness because of the knowledge that Life brought him to). Water = consciousness. (Christ walking on water represents man learning to master consciousness).

                    The historical "evidence" that Jesus existed is sketchy to say the least, but that doesn't mean that these texts are fairy tales with some heavy handed morals thrown in. I believe there was a time when people did not live to work, or have lists of things they needed to tick to make them happy. At some stage, people recognised that mystery was in abundance, and they devoted lifetimes to understanding these mysteries.

                    Unfortunately religion has subverted these texts and presented them as literal presentations of truth, rather than a series of formula.

                    It irks me that Atheists keep saying they don't believe in God, because it's religion that they don't believe in (usually just one religion. Most atheists I know haven't studied theology extensively). The interpretation of "God" as a "creator" is so narrow.

                    I like to read books that are totally oppositional to what I believe because it challenges me and keeps my mind open. "The God Delusion" is the most ignorant and pompous piece of writing I've had the misfortune to waste my time on.

                    I usually keep quiet during these discussions because they really make my blood boil. Why can't we look for the similarities between what we believe instead of constantly picking out the differences? We all say we want a peaceful world, but no one's prepared to start with themselves. [/rant]
                    Last edited by YogaBare; 04-02-2013, 06:03 AM.
                    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                    - Ray Peat

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                      I don't want to pick on anyone's posts specifically, but what really irritates me about atheism is that:

                      1) Religious people are regarded as naive or weak.
                      1) The "God" they don't believe in is invariably the same "God" that religious people do believe in. This is going out on a whim, but could you entertain the idea that something exists beyond this concrete boundaries of religion?

                      I sympathise with religious people, and with atheists. We're all looking for answers. I became atheist at the age of 13, and remained atheist for 10 years because it answered all my questions. Then, when the questions started again, I had to investigate, and adjust my beliefs. The only thing I have found satisfactory in explaining life is Quantum Physics, and an understanding that the Bible is a jargonic text, never meant to be interpreted literally. If you read the bible with the meaning of the words in mind it actually makes sense. Examples: Adam = man, Eve = Life (Man develops self awareness because of the knowledge that Life brought him to). Water = consciousness. (Christ walking on water represents man learning to master consciousness).

                      The historical "evidence" that Jesus existed is sketchy to say the least, but that doesn't mean that these texts are fairy tales with some heavy handed morals thrown in. I believe there was a time when people did not live to work, or have lists of things they needed to tick to make them happy. At some stage, people recognised that mystery was in abundance, and they devoted lifetimes to understanding these mysteries.

                      Unfortunately religion has subverted these texts and presented them as literal presentations of truth, rather than a series of formula.

                      It irks me that Atheists keep saying they don't believe in God, because it's religion that they don't believe in (usually just one religion. Most atheists I know haven't studied theology extensively). The interpretation of "God" as a "creator" is so narrow.

                      I like to read books that are totally oppositional to what I believe because it challenges me and keeps my mind open. "The God Delusion" is the most ignorant and pompous piece of writing I've had the misfortune to waste my time on.

                      I usually keep quiet during these discussions because they really make my blood boil. Why can't we look for the similarities between what we believe instead of constantly picking out the differences? We all say we want a peaceful world, but no one's prepared to start with themselves. [/rant]
                      Okay, preface: I like The God Delusion. And I'm the quintessential "atheist zealot" giving all the closet atheists (Like Derp, despite his repeated denials) a bad name. I have a T-Rex eating a Jesus fish emblem, and a bumper sticker that says "Born Right the First Time."

                      But my real objection, as I keep saying, is when people try to justify decision- and/or policy-making based on known fallacies (like suggesting that my ancestrally informed diet is misguided because Jesus talked about bread e.g. the original post in this very thread. Or the Crusades. Or limiting women's right to choose. Or flying airplanes into buildings. Or driving an entire people out of a "holy land").

                      You want to talk about which gods I object to, specifically? It's really an easy distinction for me. I object to Gods that exist outside the Universe. Gods you have to apply to for salvation. I think spirituality is an inherent human trait, and as much as I don't believe in a sentient creator, I feel like the earth is our home (rather than heaven/nirvana/valhalla/whatever), and I'm saddened when people feel so out of place here that they need to turn to Sky Gods in cloud castles outside the universe and dream of finally being "home" after they're dead.

                      I'm home now, and I'll be home when I'm eaten by lions and become part of the lion, and when the worms eat the lion and I become a worm, and when a bird eats the worm, etc... But there's no conflict between science and my spiritual beliefs. They're 2 ways of looking at the same observations, not 1 way of looking at it and 1 way of looking away from it (i.e. Stephen J. Gould's "Separate Magisteria" hogwash).

                      And yes, I do plan to be eaten by lions. (worms more likely). But I don't want to be embalmed/preserved/sealed in an air-tight box. I want to return to the community of life that which I've borrowed from it all these years, so that I may continue taking part in the glorious spectacle that is life.
                      The Champagne of Beards

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                      • YogaBare, I like your posts and I'm glad you don't keep quiet. Don't let this thread make your blood boil, just focus on the people who are actually interested in the discussion. I like hearing ideas that challenge mine, and bouncing my ideas off others who are willing to listen and respond. It's the best way to learn.

                        I agree that the universe is mysterious. Atheists see mystery everywhere. You could make the argument that atheists see more mystery in the universe than some theists do, because atheists don't claim to have an answer to it all -- just a lot to explore (most of which we'll probably never comprehend).

                        If your concept of God is basically just "all the mysterious and unknown/unknowable stuff" in the universe, then sure, I believe in that. I don't think this is entirely what most people think of as God though.

                        Keep challenging us Yoga! I'm more than happy to reconsider my position on anything.
                        Last edited by ciep; 04-02-2013, 06:59 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          And yes, I do plan to be eaten by lions. (worms more likely). But I don't want to be embalmed/preserved/sealed in an air-tight box. I want to return to the community of life that which I've borrowed from it all these years, so that I may continue taking part in the glorious spectacle that is life.
                          Loved your whole post but mostly this.

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                          • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                            I usually keep quiet during these discussions because they really make my blood boil. Why can't we look for the similarities between what we believe instead of constantly picking out the differences? We all say we want a peaceful world, but no one's prepared to start with themselves. [/rant]
                            It's a lovely idea, but we should not pretend that 'the religious' and 'atheists' are on equal footing . . . in the U.S., at least. Many Christians in the United States do not act in such a fashion, but it certain seems like organized religion relies heavily on meddling in the lives of nonbelievers.

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                            • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                              I'm home now, and I'll be home when I'm eaten by lions and become part of the lion, and when the worms eat the lion and I become a worm, and when a bird eats the worm, etc... But there's no conflict between science and my spiritual beliefs. They're 2 ways of looking at the same observations, not 1 way of looking at it and 1 way of looking away from it (i.e. Stephen J. Gould's "Separate Magisteria" hogwash).

                              And yes, I do plan to be eaten by lions. (worms more likely). But I don't want to be embalmed/preserved/sealed in an air-tight box. I want to return to the community of life that which I've borrowed from it all these years, so that I may continue taking part in the glorious spectacle that is life.
                              Lions or worms, most of “you”, RichMahogny, will anyway be burnt for energy or end up in the feces of the lions or worms! The rest of the molecules of "you" that is stored inside the worm will also relative soon end up in water or in the soil. So if it makes you feel happy; it's not unlikely that some lions or worms have a water or oxygen molecule or two that have travelled through your body inside themselves already, since huge amounts of molecules are travelling through our bodies all the time. Personally I am convinced that some of the molecules that have earlier been in the body of a Tiger are now present in my body, I can feel it, so then it must be true of course…
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

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                              • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                                I think spirituality is an inherent human trait, and as much as I don't believe in a sentient creator, I feel like the earth is our home
                                That's a... common feeling, but I'm unsure what does it have to do with spirituality. Yeah, sure, you want to be part of a chain of life and all that, but why call it spirituality?

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