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  • #31
    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
    Is that a refence to me? And where did I call you "a liar"? You make certain irrational and absurd statements that you can gain weight in a calorie deficit below 800 kcal per day, and I say that it can't be the case, but I don't call you a liar, because you probably don't know where you are mistaken or make wrong measurements. Another possibility is that you are trolling or lying, but I am not saying that, only that what you are claiming can't be the case! In an earlier post you wrote that you can gain weight in a calorie deficit:


    This is of course a complete absurdity, so I don't need to check it, because nobody can even maintain their weight in a calorie deficit, far less gain any! And if somebody claim that gravitation is not working where he lives and that a stone instead of falling down flies upwards instead, I don't need to go and check it, because I can dismiss it as pure nonsense a priori. But maybe this person believes in what he is saying though...
    You are calling me a liar once again. What possible "checking" could you possibly be referring to? You actually think I would welcome an internet troll into my home to watch as I step on the scale, to measure my food before I eat it?

    Besides, you've said you don't want to know anything about it because you already know everything there is to be known. Close enough for me. No need to generate data for you.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      Is that a refence to me? And where did I call you "a liar"? You make certain irrational and absurd statements that you can gain weight in a calorie deficit below 800 kcal per day, and I say that it can't be the case, but I don't call you a liar, because you probably don't know where you are mistaken or make wrong measurements. Another possibility is that you are trolling or lying, but I am not saying that, only that what you are claiming can't be the case! In an earlier post you wrote that you can gain weight in a calorie deficit:


      This is of course a complete absurdity, so I don't need to check it, because nobody can even maintain their weight in a calorie deficit, far less gain any! And if somebody claim that gravitation is not working where he lives and that a stone instead of falling down flies upwards instead, I don't need to go and check it, because I can dismiss it as pure nonsense a priori. But maybe this person believes in what he is saying though...
      You are calling me a liar once again. What possible "checking" could you possibly be referring to? You actually think I would welcome an internet troll into my home to watch as I step on the scale, to measure my food before I eat it?

      Besides, you've said you don't want to know anything about it because you already know everything there is to be known. Close enough for me. No need to generate data for you.

      Seriously, what did I weigh today? Let's ask Gorbag. He can tell me without even knowing anything about what I ate. No need to ever step on the scale again. Gorbag knows all.

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      • #33
        I'm not taking sides in this, but I'd like to point out that although I tend to agree with the belief that it's impossible to gain weight with a caloric deficit, I've actually done that because of thyroid problems. I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis, and one aspect of that disease is that the person can have conversion problems so that the T3 hormone isn't made by the body. When that happened, I was eating to lose about a pound a week--and had been losing steadily--when I suddenly gained 10 lbs in 2 weeks. And it wasn't 'water' either--that's how much the thyroid controls metabolism.

        I've been taking T3 hormones since then, but my level dropped so low at one point that I had to eat only 500 cal a day to keep from gaining (until I could get my Rx increased).

        My point is that there could be medical issues that will cause a person to gain even with a caloric deficit--but absent a physical problem, it's unlikely.

        I've known people who claimed that they gained weight eating only 800 cal a day, and I suspect that they were not counting accurately. Unless you weigh and measure, you can be 'off' considerably.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by emmie View Post
          I've known people who claimed that they gained weight eating only 800 cal a day, and I suspect that they were not counting accurately. Unless you weigh and measure, you can be 'off' considerably.
          Which I was doing.

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          • #35
            Lots of people have had the experience of not losing or even gaining while eating low calorie. Did it myself. Was hungry for years. Gorbag has called me a liar in another thread as he has now done with Katherine. He thinks he is an expert on the working of metabolism. All he's proven is that he is as close-minded as those who said the earth was flat.
            Starting Weight: 197.5
            Current Weight: 123
            Far healthier!

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            • #36
              Well said emmie, I am in a similar position - gained weight despite a 'calorie deficit', due to thyroid condition.

              I put 'calorie deficit' in brackets, because obviously eating 1200 calories a day, while according to all calorie counters and estimators etc was a deficit, in actual fact it can't have been a deficit because I was gaining.

              I think it comes down to semantics - how do we know that a certain number of calories is a deficit? We don't, not if the old calories in vs calories out is flawed, which I think has thoroughly been proven or argued on other threads. Therefore, we only know that we are in a calorie deficit when we lose weight.

              If we begin by believing that ekatherine is telling the truth, and did in fact gain weight on 800cal per day - and what possible reason would ekatherine have to lie? What gain? Other than incorrect feedback about their diet? And also assume that ekatherine is not a complete incompetent and unable to weigh, measure and add up this 800cal per day. Then the only answer is that for ekatherine, 800cal per day was not a deficit. Probably, as emmie says, due to metabolic or hormonal issues, eg thyroid.

              I have been there myself, and have had people tell me that I was incompetent, lying, or just too plain stupid to add up and measure my calories.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by janie View Post
                Lots of people have had the experience of not losing or even gaining while eating low calorie. Did it myself. Was hungry for years. Gorbag has called me a liar in another thread as he has now done with Katherine. He thinks he is an expert on the working of metabolism. All he's proven is that he is as close-minded as those who said the earth was flat.
                I can't remember that I have called any person "a liar" since I was at the age of around 14, so any citation would be appreciated from those people that claims that I have called ANYBODY a liar...
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                  You are calling me a liar once again.
                  Did I? I said that the implications of your statement is a complete absurdity, i.e. that you can gain weight in a calorie deficit - but some persons believes in absurde things and are not necessary liars because what they believe is wrong - do you understand the difference?
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

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                  • #39
                    I think this is becoming a distraction now. At some point in the future I will revisit it to see if I can figure out exactly what is happening. But for now it has just given Gorbag an excuse to hijack an unrelated thread.

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                    • #40
                      It's my fault. I fed the troll...
                      The process is simple: Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lucy1984 View Post
                        Well said emmie, I am in a similar position - gained weight despite a 'calorie deficit', due to thyroid condition.

                        I put 'calorie deficit' in brackets, because obviously eating 1200 calories a day, while according to all calorie counters and estimators etc was a deficit, in actual fact it can't have been a deficit because I was gaining.

                        I think it comes down to semantics - how do we know that a certain number of calories is a deficit? We don't, not if the old calories in vs calories out is flawed, which I think has thoroughly been proven or argued on other threads. Therefore, we only know that we are in a calorie deficit when we lose weight.

                        If we begin by believing that ekatherine is telling the truth, and did in fact gain weight on 800cal per day - and what possible reason would ekatherine have to lie? What gain? Other than incorrect feedback about their diet? And also assume that ekatherine is not a complete incompetent and unable to weigh, measure and add up this 800cal per day. Then the only answer is that for ekatherine, 800cal per day was not a deficit. Probably, as emmie says, due to metabolic or hormonal issues, eg thyroid.

                        I have been there myself, and have had people tell me that I was incompetent, lying, or just too plain stupid to add up and measure my calories.
                        +1 Ah...so nice to see someone else who really gets what a calorie deficit is. Thank you.
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by lucy1984 View Post
                          Well said emmie, I am in a similar position - gained weight despite a 'calorie deficit', due to thyroid condition.

                          I put 'calorie deficit' in brackets, because obviously eating 1200 calories a day, while according to all calorie counters and estimators etc was a deficit, in actual fact it can't have been a deficit because I was gaining.

                          I think it comes down to semantics - how do we know that a certain number of calories is a deficit? We don't, not if the old calories in vs calories out is flawed, which I think has thoroughly been proven or argued on other threads. Therefore, we only know that we are in a calorie deficit when we lose weight.

                          If we begin by believing that ekatherine is telling the truth, and did in fact gain weight on 800cal per day - and what possible reason would ekatherine have to lie? What gain? Other than incorrect feedback about their diet? And also assume that ekatherine is not a complete incompetent and unable to weigh, measure and add up this 800cal per day. Then the only answer is that for ekatherine, 800cal per day was not a deficit. Probably, as emmie says, due to metabolic or hormonal issues, eg thyroid.

                          I have been there myself, and have had people tell me that I was incompetent, lying, or just too plain stupid to add up and measure my calories.
                          Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
                          +1 Ah...so nice to see someone else who really gets what a calorie deficit is. Thank you.
                          I'm another one who's been there, done that, Gorbag. When your thyroid has tanked and your CO side of the equation is wayyyy below what it should be, thanks to your ridiculously low metabolism, of course there are going to be some serious issues. I'd read many of emmie's posts here for quite some time and had no idea I'd be in the same baffling boat at one point. Unfortunately, NOTHING will "fix" such a situation other than going straight to the source of the problem and addressing the thyroid deficiencies. No amount of supplements, dietary changes, fitness regimens, or combinations of the three will compensate for the lack of thyroid hormone. I tried them all (repeatedly) and kick myself for wasting so much time and energy trying to fix it myself before addressing what I'd hoped wasn't the issue. (Thank God for those of you who've posted about your situation - reading them helped snap me out of my insanity/denial and get my butt to the ENDO!)
                          Last edited by GoJenGo; 04-08-2013, 08:38 AM.
                          Life is not a matter of having good cards, but of playing a poor hand well.

                          - Robert Louis Stevenson

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                          • #43
                            Okay, back on topic.

                            I'm reading through the other thread, the support thread, primarily to gather more info for my dad, who is a master faster but hasn't been able to harness that facility to lose weight consistently. He is motivated, can fast for two to four days without discomfort or challenges, but so far isn't really getting that much weight off that stays off.

                            My main question is the discussion about bonking and livers and glycogen. When we are eating primal/paleo, don't most people shift to burning fat? Or at least to being more efficient switchers back and forth between sugar/fat burning as needed? I've taken this benefit of transitioning fully into primal as one of the reasons Mark and others don't promote IF but only say it can be a tool for some if it works for you, etc.

                            My dad, who eats crackers and bread most days, doesn't seem to crash on multi-day fasts. Not at all. He doesn't even get hungry -- only misses the habits of meals and taste sensations, really. That lack of a crash surprised me at first but I guess his metabolism is able to switch to fat-burning despite normally living on much higher carbs than most of us.

                            Anyway, I find myself quizzical at the crash/bonk/glycogen questions in the support thread. Am I missing something obvious, or are most people doing alternate days not fully transitioned into primal? Maybe I just have my dad's metabolism, because I don't crash on fasts either.

                            Anyway, just curious about this aspect for any who may have comments. Thanks!
                            "If man made it, don't eat it." ..Jack LaLanne
                            "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are.
                            If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong." ..Richard Feynman

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