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What to tell those who claim being vegan is "heart healthy"?

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  • #16
    Katherine nailed it.

    Plant foods are lauded as being good for your heart because they are low in saturated fat and cholesterol, but saturated fat and cholesterol aren't the actual cause of heart disease.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

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    • #17
      just punch them in the taint and be done with it because no one is changing anyone's mind
      beautiful
      yeah you are

      Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
      lol

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      • #18
        Thanks guys! Definitely going to check out those links.
        22 year old male in Pittsburgh. Primal since 9/12.

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        • #19
          Essylstyn's study on heart disease showed reversal with all that stuck with it. Same with Ornish's. Only a few of them used statins when they couldn't get their Ldl below 70 or total below 150.

          Nathan pritikin suffered heart disease on the SAD diet of the 50's and reversed it with his low fat diet. His autopsy showed he had clean arteries by the time he died.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
            If low cholesterol leads to an early death, I'm gonna live forever...
            F, 44 years old, 111.8 lbs, 4 feet 11.5 inches (yes, that half inch matters!)

            **1st place sparring, AAU TKD regional qualifier, 2/15/15 - It's damn good to hit like a girl!**

            **First-ever 5K race 11/28/13: 37 minutes, 18+ seconds, no stopping**

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            • #21
              My reply would be something along the line of "Thanks for sharing" and I'd eat a burger. You aren't gonna change anyone's mind that has decided they are right and you are wrong..... It's about emotionality, not rationality...

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
                Essylstyn's study on heart disease showed reversal with all that stuck with it. Same with Ornish's. Only a few of them used statins when they couldn't get their Ldl below 70 or total below 150.
                Not everyone would agree with you that study is quite so conclusive.

                Dr. Esselstyn published the results of a five-year intervention with a low-fat vegetarian diet combined with the individualized use of cholesterol-lowering drugs to bring cholesterol down to 150 mg/dL.16 Since Esselstyn considered it unethical to allow patients under his supervision to eat a standard diet, there was no control group. Twenty-two percent of those who began the intervention dropped out of the study within the first two years; thirty-five percent of those who completed it did not submit to the follow-up analysis of their cardiovascular health; of the twenty-two patients who began the trial, only eleven remained in the final analysis. Of these eleven, occlusion of the blood vessels became better in five, stayed the same in one, and became worse in four.

                Despite the inconsistent results, the average change in the width of the blood vessels was an increase in 0.08 millimeters. This represents a reversal of atherosclerosis - on average. Likewise, on average, the degree to which blood vessels were constricted decreased by seven percentage points. Six of the eleven dropped out of the study after the first five years; in the following five years, there were ten heart attacks among the six that dropped out while there were none among the five who remained on the program.

                Since there was no control group and there was such a high drop-out rate, it is difficult to make much sense of the study. Did the people drop out because their health was not important to them? Or did they drop out because the vegetarian diet made them feel fatigued, unsatisfied, and even less healthy than their original diet full of meat and junk food? Were the people who completed the study but did not submit to the final measurements of their blood vessels reluctant for no reason, or were they reluctant because they were afraid of the results they would obtain based on how the diet made them feel?

                Despite the lack of high-quality evidence, I have little doubt that many people would improve their health on Esselstyn's plan, and especially on Fuhrman's plan, which emphasizes nutrient density to a greater degree than does Esselstyn's. To the extent that the oxidation of lipoproteins such as LDL within the blood would accelerate the accumulation of atherosclerotic plaque, I would expect these plans to be beneficial in two respects: they are so low in added fats and oils that the subjects eat very little polyunsaturated fat, and the small amount of polyunsaturated fat that the patients do obtain from whole foods are accompanied by a rich array of antioxidants that protect them from oxidation.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
                  Essylstyn's study on heart disease showed reversal with all that stuck with it. Same with Ornish's. Only a few of them used statins when they couldn't get their Ldl below 70 or total below 150.

                  Nathan pritikin suffered heart disease on the SAD diet of the 50's and reversed it with his low fat diet. His autopsy showed he had clean arteries by the time he died.
                  Nathan Pritikin commited suicide and there has been evidence that his low/no fat diet could be a major source of brain dysfunction including depression, among many other neurological problems. Other people who followed the Pritikin diet also felt severely depressed on it as well.
                  "If man made it, don't eat it" - Jack Lallane

                  People say I am on a "crazy" diet. What is so crazy about eating veggies, fruits, seafood and organ meats? Just because I don't eat whole wheat and processed food doesn't make my diet "crazy". Maybe everyone else with a SAD are the "crazy" ones for putting that junk in their system.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Balance View Post
                    Nathan Pritikin commited suicide and there has been evidence that his low/no fat diet could be a major source of brain dysfunction including depression, among many other neurological problems. Other people who followed the Pritikin diet also felt severely depressed on it as well.
                    If I were forced to eat no fat exclusively, suicide would be a serious option.

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                    • #25
                      To be fair, Pritikin was very sick when he committed suicide. At death's door. So, maybe instead of being whacked, he just wanted to end it on a proactive note. However, the way he committed suicide? An interesting choice. According to Wikipedia (grain of salt reference) here: Nathan Pritikin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      Pritikin traveled from California to a hospital in New York state under an assumed name for a second opinion. He was told that there was no hope and that he would most likely die quite soon. He said goodbye to his family and sent them out to eat dinner. He then severed both his brachial arteries with a scalpel and bled to death in his hospital bed.
                      Here's the location of the brachial arteries: Fig. 525

                      Meeting death on one's own terms and in control and conscious may not be the worst choice.

                      I don't argue with vegans. We're all on the same side: good health, good earth. Vegans are just misguided. But I'm an atheist also, and I don't argue the existence of a God either.
                      "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                      B*tch-lite

                      Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                        It's not rocket science, the heart needs animal fat / saturated fat, and cholesterol. Eating vegis is good, but not getting fat-soluable vitamins is suicide.
                        Originally posted by jfreaksho View Post
                        I'm thinking that a vegan diet low in processed foods will mostly be bad for the lack of nutrients in it- the fat-soluble ones such as A, D, and E, the B vitamins, etc, as well as the lack of natural omega-3 oils (I don't think the plant-based ones work quite the same way).
                        I am baffled why anyone would think a vegan would be vitamin deficient outside of B12? Vitamin A, for example, is most rich in plant foods outside of liver. I think 1 cup of kale is 200% daily requirement of vitamin A. That is 33 calories! Think the amount of vitamins and minerals you get from these foods on 2000-3000 calories a day. Just because they are not eating animals does not mean they are not able to process these vitamins.
                        Last edited by statikcat; 03-21-2013, 01:35 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by statikcat View Post
                          I am baffled why anyone would think a vegan would be vitamin deficient outside of B12? Vitamin A, for example, is most rich in plant foods outside of liver. I think 1 cup of kale is 200% daily requirement of vitamin A. That is 33 calories! Think the amount of vitamins and minerals you get from these foods on 2000-3000 calories a day. Just because they are not eating animals does not mean they are not able to process these vitamins.
                          It's a myth that all vegans eat mostly fresh vegetables and fruit. People who change their diet for reasons of ideology are often no more concerned about the quality of foods they put in their mouths than they were when they ate SAD. For people like this there are vegan processed and snack foods. And they do buy these foods, despite complaining about the high cost.

                          The fact that people are even willing to make such changes would suggest that these are people who are less concerned with the pleasure of eating to begin with.

                          My daughter had some vegan friends who were always talking about how much healthier a vegan diet is, and how much more of a variety of healthy foods vegans eat than non-vegans. She said she never saw them eat anything but kale and oatmeal.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by statikcat View Post
                            I am baffled why anyone would think a vegan would be vitamin deficient outside of B12? Vitamin A, for example, is most rich in plant foods outside of liver. I think 1 cup of kale is 200% daily requirement of vitamin A. That is 33 calories! Think the amount of vitamins and minerals you get from these foods on 2000-3000 calories a day. Just because they are not eating animals does not mean they are not able to process these vitamins.
                            Because beta carotene isn't vitamin A, despite what an online nutritional calculator told you.
                            The Champagne of Beards

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                            • #29
                              As to the original question: I would tell them you care about them and want to make sure their nutritional bases are covered. Point them here and hope they figure it out before they do irreparable damage to their health. Because veganism is an ideology and ideologies are never swayed by facts.
                              The Champagne of Beards

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                                Because beta carotene isn't vitamin A,
                                Beta carotene, for most people, becomes vitamin A? Sure, it varies on the person but at high levels in foods like carrots, kale, and other vegetables I would bet most vegans are just fine.

                                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                                despite what an online nutritional calculator told you.
                                Next time work on your snide comments so they make more sense. Then we can all know you realize what a calculator does and does not do.

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