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  • Is it better to overeat or undereat?

    When I was first turned on to this WOE there were a lot of flags flying for fasting as a tool to promote health and longevity. Since then there's been some info about how eating more is actually better.

    Today I found this article, which kind of makes sense to me:
    Here is the simple process of aging. Every living cell within our body creates waste products. The nutrients from our food are delivered to each cell and they burn with oxygen to provide energy for us to live. The burned nutrients are the waste products. Whether you eat gourmet or junk food, all food generates waste products. The food that is either good or bad for you is determined by the amount and quality of the wastes produced: toxic, acid, alkaline, etc. Most of our cells go through metabolism and old dead cells become waste products.

    These waste products must be discharged from our body. In fact, our body tries its best to dispose of them through urine and perspiration. Virtually all waste products are acidic; that is why urine is acidic and skin surface is also acidic. The problem is that, due to several reasons, our body cannot get rid of 100% of the waste products it produces.

    The question is: "What happens to those non-disposed acidic waste products?" The answer is simple. These waste products become solid wastes, such as, cholesterol, fatty acid, uric acid, kidney stones, urates, phosphates, sulfates, etc., and, unknown to us, they accumulate and build-up somewhere within our body. This accumulation of non-disposed acidic wastes within our body is the aging process(1).
    And I started wondering if this is why I feel worse. I've been having terrible night sweats, and have been peeing non-stop.
    Granted, it comes off one of those alkaline diet sites, but...

    What do you think? Better to overeat or undereat? Within reason, obviously. Any resources providing evidence for one or the other (not Mark's posts)?
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  • #2
    With regards to calories and nutrients slightly over is better in my opinion, but if you have GI issues then one needs to be more wary with volume and composition regarding the physical demands placed on the GI tract.

    Once your body is and has been for a while in reasonable health, then IF and occassional calorie restriction is good to force your body to scavange out all the crap hidden in those hard to reach places and to increase cycling rate of adipose tissue stores.
    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

    Comment


    • #3
      Uh... In regards to body comp:

      Based on nothing but my opinion, it's better to overeat by a little. Especially if sick. You can always diet away the fat/lose weight later, but undereating and losing LBM? Nah, not worth it.
      Coming from a skinny kid. Srsly.
      Dark chocolate and coffee, running through my veins...

      Fitocracy Workout Tracker:
      https://www.fitocracy.com/profile/Shadowknight137/?feed
      MFP Food Diary:
      http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary/Shadowknight137
      (Date is New Zealand Time UTC+ 12hours)

      Comment


      • #4
        I think it's best to really figure out what your maintenance calories are
        and then eat as much nutritionally dense food as you can for about a month.

        Then if you want to lose weight, you start by hacking off 100 calories at a
        time, for say, two weeks and see what happens.

        Lose weight? Great, keep at it until you don't, then lower again.

        Just my opinion,

        Julie

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
          What do you think? Better to overeat or undereat? Within reason, obviously. Any resources providing evidence for one or the other (not Mark's posts)?
          I think that acid/alkaline thing is snake oil. Cholesterol isn't a waste product of the body, it's vital to life.

          But to answer your thread topic, I think they are flip sides of the same coin. Periodic feasting is absolutely part of intermittent fasting.
          Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

          Griff's cholesterol primer
          5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
          Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
          TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
          bloodorchid is always right

          Comment


          • #6
            Reduced calorie diets have been shown to promote longevity in worms and perhaps in mice. But my understanding is that may not hold true for primates and humans. The longest lived humans tend to have a BMI on the higher side of normal (although I wonder if that is because very sick people have a low BMI and that drags down the average in the low BMI group).

            Personally, my bias is that it is healthiest to cycle between too few, just right, and a bit too many calories.
            Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

            http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

            Comment


            • #7
              Am interested in the night sweats, I had these all my life and thaught it was normal for me, but when I went Primal they pretty much stopped altogether, through a number of dietary indiscretions over time, I am pretty sure for me it was most likely high carb intake along with Gluten and possibly other grain related factors.

              I suspect the effect may be related to hormonal disruption, there are two key hormonal responses going into sleep mode, firstly Melatonin starts to ramp up from around 9 pm, this starts to send the I'm sleepy signal and then peaks at around 4am. The thyroid system also activates in the same cycle basically with TSH and T3 also peaking around the same time. In a healthy individual this is the most appropriate timing as these thyroid levels would normally send one completely Hyper, but melatonin is much more powerful and overides the T3 and keeps you asleep by moderating the metabolic response. This may also feed into the overnight body maintenance & repair process, and the elevated T3 may be a key part to this function.

              If there is a mistiming in the Melationin and T3 levels then there is a possibility that if your T3 was a bit low in the past things would be ok, but now if your T3 has increased, but the timing with melatonin is not quite right and the T3 peak earlier, then this may result in the sweats and an accelerated metabolism, might be worth checking body temp and heart rate when you wake up with the sweats.

              Not sure if the above is completely relevant, but worth some consideration.
              "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

              Comment


              • #8
                Eat to support metabolism. People believe undereating has an affect on longevity due to phagocytosis, which is in tune after a certain number of hours of fasting.

                Peat's view:

                "Unsaturated fatty acids inhibit phagocytosis. Dietary restriction activates phagocytosis, suggesting that normal diets contain suppressive materials. Subnormal temperatures cause a shift from phagocytosis to inflammation."

                "The great decline in proteolytic autophagy that occurs with aging can be reduced by inhibiting the release of fatty acids. This effect is additive to the antiaging effects of calorie restriction, suggesting that it is largely the decrease of dietary fats that makes calorie restriction effective."

                He also theorizes that co2 production causes macrophages to activate phagocytic neutrophils, which increases their number.
                Make America Great Again

                Comment


                • #9
                  Mix it up! Undereat in the daytime and overeat at night and undereat on some of the week days and overeat in the weekends etc. I am a firm believer that we need both, and that we do good by cycle between periods of undereating/fasting and overeating/feasting...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                    Mix it up! Undereat in the daytime and overeat at night and undereat on some of the week days and overeat in the weekends etc. I am a firm believer that we need both, and that we do good by cycle between periods of undereating/fasting and overeating/feasting...
                    +1

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                      Mix it up! Undereat in the daytime and overeat at night and undereat on some of the week days and overeat in the weekends etc. I am a firm believer that we need both, and that we do good by cycle between periods of undereating/fasting and overeating/feasting...
                      +2
                      50yo, 5'3"
                      SW-195
                      CW-125, part calorie counting, part transition to primal
                      GW- Goals are no longer weight-related

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I totally agree with the statement from Gorbag. I think you need both to be healthy. I'll have days where I am STARVING and am a bottomless pit and will eat ANYTHING put in front of me. Then I'll have days where I don't eat at all. (Shrug) The body does what the body wants.
                        Female
                        5'5"
                        130lbs

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks for all the replies!

                          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Mix it up! Undereat in the daytime and overeat at night and undereat on some of the week days and overeat in the weekends etc. I am a firm believer that we need both, and that we do good by cycle between periods of undereating/fasting and overeating/feasting...
                          Brilliant. I actually think this is how the human body thrives... variety! Works for exercise too.
                          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                          - Ray Peat

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Omni View Post
                            With regards to calories and nutrients slightly over is better in my opinion, but if you have GI issues then one needs to be more wary with volume and composition regarding the physical demands placed on the GI tract.

                            Once your body is and has been for a while in reasonable health, then IF and occassional calorie restriction is good to force your body to scavange out all the crap hidden in those hard to reach places and to increase cycling rate of adipose tissue stores.
                            That's a good point about GI issues. Funnily enough, when I overeat on crap, or particular foods (like nuts), it gives me problems, but when I overeat on real food... niente!

                            Originally posted by Omni View Post
                            Am interested in the night sweats, I had these all my life and thaught it was normal for me, but when I went Primal they pretty much stopped altogether, through a number of dietary indiscretions over time, I am pretty sure for me it was most likely high carb intake along with Gluten and possibly other grain related factors.

                            I suspect the effect may be related to hormonal disruption, there are two key hormonal responses going into sleep mode, firstly Melatonin starts to ramp up from around 9 pm, this starts to send the I'm sleepy signal and then peaks at around 4am. The thyroid system also activates in the same cycle basically with TSH and T3 also peaking around the same time. In a healthy individual this is the most appropriate timing as these thyroid levels would normally send one completely Hyper, but melatonin is much more powerful and overides the T3 and keeps you asleep by moderating the metabolic response. This may also feed into the overnight body maintenance & repair process, and the elevated T3 may be a key part to this function.

                            If there is a mistiming in the Melationin and T3 levels then there is a possibility that if your T3 was a bit low in the past things would be ok, but now if your T3 has increased, but the timing with melatonin is not quite right and the T3 peak earlier, then this may result in the sweats and an accelerated metabolism, might be worth checking body temp and heart rate when you wake up with the sweats.

                            Not sure if the above is completely relevant, but worth some consideration.
                            Thanks for all the info Omni! I've had chronic insomnia for nine years, most nights waking up around 3.30 / 4am, so something is definitely off. But at the moment I'm sleeping better than I have in a long, long time, night sweats and all! I'm getting my bloods done next wk so should have more to work with there re. t3 etc.

                            I'm thinking the night sweats might just be from eating a lot of food and my body burning it off thermogenically? Cos' in the past I've gotten them it after overeating - even on macademia nuts.
                            "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                            In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                            - Ray Peat

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jammies View Post
                              Reduced calorie diets have been shown to promote longevity in worms and perhaps in mice.
                              Lol
                              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                              - Ray Peat

                              Comment

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