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Why do some people do poorly on very Low Carb diet?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Omni View Post
    I think the workout thing is different where to get max output glycogen still rules, but it is worth looking at developing your fat metabolism further by doing workouts in a glycogen depleted state, you won't achieve your best performance, but over time you do get better, it's a strange kind of feeling, you don't get the lactate burning, there's just this kind of upper limit of force.
    Within the 4 types of muscle fibre a couple of them can build up special fatty stores, kind of like the glycogen thing, so by doing some workouts without the aid of glycogen this facility improves, then over time you can build up both sides and when it comes to the big day, you can really be a "Duel Fuel Beast".
    I still keto now and then, usually by accident over a weekend. So I end up depleted during mondays workout. So I go there, just not 24/7 like 3 months ago and the 9 months prior.

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    • #32
      Leida,
      It's a pay for here $30, we had to research it and I had to tell the doc, yes it is available, just write it on the script.

      Not suggesting you should be VLC, eat whatever makes you feel well,
      I'm just curious to see what corrolations there are and how people can improve their health and what markers are actually relevant.
      "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Omni View Post
        Haven't done any numbers on it, but just on feel I think most of the negative responses on VLC have been from women with the whole metabolic slow down etc and lesser inclination towards IF then men, but I think most of the High Cholesterol outcomes on VLC have been from men, so these two may be flip sides of the same coin. This goes in line with the fact more women get autoimmune diseases, but more men suffer from heart disease, is the root cause the same, but because of hormonal differences between the sexes the disease manifestations are different.
        all manifestations of inflammation, which is what i believe starts out simply, and always unrecognized, and then turns into a fiery hell of ill health.
        As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

        Ernest Hemingway

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        • #34
          Yes, agreed
          Cut out Grains, Pufa's. processed foods etc.

          But, I'm looking for a bit more detail, eg is it valid to tell people that if they show a particular set of symptoms to hold carbs up a bit for a few years until their body heals more as against what I often see here coming from the people who do well on VLC simply telling individuals to push through it and some do ok, but many do much worse after months of dedication.
          "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

          Comment


          • #35
            cutting out grains doesn't translate instantly to vlc. it's quite easy to be at 100+ gms of carbs with a bit of starchy tuber and fruit. i think many would do just fine between 50-100.

            however, as pb mentioned upthread, and i have seen it too, many who try to go lower don't do what they need to do to succeed. for example, the simple necessity of replenishing electrolytes due to the diuretic nature of ketosis, slips through the cracks more often than i can count.

            i am not trying to disagree that it's not for everybody and also agree that liver and kidney function play a vital role. but i only play a doctor on the interwebs.

            As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

            Ernest Hemingway

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Omni View Post

              As leptin resistance often precedes insulin resistance by decades, does this mean that these individuals are pre-pre-pre-diabetic and that leptin levels should be checked before diving into a low carb diet.
              I don't know about this one...in all of the bloodwork I had in my lifetime, my fasting blood glucose was always perfect. I also had bloodwork done after going VLC paleo, and my blood glucose was unchanged. So, no indication of any type of pre-diabetes, and I'm someone who doesn't thrive on low carb.

              I also don't know about the leptin thing, either. When i was eating low carb, I never had satiety/hunger issues at all, ever. I just had crippling fatigue, depression, IBS, and hypothyroid issues. I don't know how to tell for sure, but I don't think any of that was related to leptin, since hunger signals were just fine.

              Just to toss out my own possibly crackpot theory, when I was trying to figure out why I wasn't thriving, one thing I came up with was that I suspected my adrenaline receptors were downregulated (I don't have adrenalinic responses to situations that should provoke it, such as losing control of my car on ice, etc). As we know, adrenaline is needed to convert stored fat into usable energy, so maybe if this function is impaired for some people, they can't get adequate energy from that pathway.

              Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
              They probably aren't eating enough nutrient-dense foods like liver. With a true ketogenic plan, there truly is a general lack of micronutrients if you're not careful!
              I was (and still do) eating liver every week, in addition to a VERY nutrient dense diet that far exceeded the RDA in everything.
              Last edited by BestBetter; 03-18-2013, 03:42 PM.

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              • #37
                Just to toss out my own possibly crackpot theory, when I was trying to figure out why I wasn't thriving, one thing I came up with was that I suspected my adrenaline receptors were downregulated (I don't have adrenalinic responses to situations that should provoke it, such as losing control of my car on ice, etc).
                I am very excitable and get rush of blood/shortness for breath (fight or flight) response to very mild irritants. Heck, merging on a major thoroughfare causes it, let alone skidding the car....
                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                  I don't know about this one...in all of the bloodwork I had in my lifetime, my fasting blood glucose was always perfect. I also had bloodwork done after going VLC paleo, and my blood glucose was unchanged. So, no indication of any type of pre-diabetes, and I'm someone who doesn't thrive on low carb.

                  I also don't know about the leptin thing, either. When i was eating low carb, I never had satiety/hunger issues at all, ever. I just had crippling fatigue, depression, IBS, and hypothyroid issues. I don't know how to tell for sure, but I don't think any of that was related to leptin, since hunger signals were just fine.

                  Just to toss out my own possibly crackpot theory, when I was trying to figure out why I wasn't thriving, one thing I came up with was that I suspected my adrenaline receptors were downregulated (I don't have adrenalinic responses to situations that should provoke it, such as losing control of my car on ice, etc). As we know, adrenaline is needed to convert stored fat into usable energy, so maybe if this function is impaired for some people, they can't get adequate energy from that pathway.



                  I was (and still do) eating liver every week, in addition to a VERY nutrient dense diet that far exceeded the RDA in everything.
                  I believe you made a similar thread once and i responded that you prob had an adrenal axis issue and most people who do poorly on LC prob do to some degree. Its your body, not the way of eating thats the problem. The reason your blood glucose was unchanged is bc the hormones produced by your adrenals, cortisol, norepinephrine,etc help prop blood sugar up. Once you remove carbs, you are asking your adrenals to do more in terms of stabilizing blood sugar. This causes Hypothalamus, thyroid and/or adrenal issues which is why you had fatigue, depression, etc. Once again, its not that anyone doesnt thrive on relatively low carb, its that carbs for you help your adrenal axis handle the load you place on it. And in recovery, the body tends to get worse before it gets better.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by WeldingHank View Post
                    I have come to think that keto is just the gateway to retrain a broken metabolism,
                    then slowly re-introduce carbohydrate depending on activity.

                    Everyone just needs to experiment.

                    Originally posted by canuck416 View Post
                    Well said, I agree with the use of keto as a gateway. I was strict Paleo for 4 months and kept carbs under 70 gms per day, dropped 48 lbs and reached my goal weight. At this point I started to focus on getting body fat under 12% and introduced some starches (yams, white rice etc.) and increased workout intensity with great results. Currently under 10% body fat and getting great strength gains. Recently read the Perfect Health diet and I am employing their recommendations.
                    Keto or VLC as a gateway... I never thought of it this way but this makes sense! I thrived on VLC/keto for months. I had boundless energy, didn't need that much sleep, I was never hungry, and I was feeling great all the time. But then I stopped thriving. I slowly noticed IBS symptoms becoming more pronounced, hair loss and other hypothyroid symptoms coming to light. I thought it was something that would just pass, or maybe I was doing something wrong or not eating something I should have been. After everything I had read, I believed that VLC/keto/ZC made the most absolute sense and that I whatever I was experiencing was something that would just pass. The IBS just got so debilitating after a certain point that I had to change something. Like canuck416, I'm also following the recommendations of the PHD and have noticed quite an improvement in how I'm feeling. I still engage in daily fasting (16/8, sometimes more) but the addition of starches has really changed a lot for me, in a good way. So maybe I was thriving on keto while I was more "damaged," but stopped thriving after that point.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by WeldingHank View Post
                      I still keto now and then, usually by accident over a weekend. So I end up depleted during mondays workout. So I go there, just not 24/7 like 3 months ago and the 9 months prior.

                      Hank,
                      My situation is very similar to yours. I started out very over weight and am now getting closer to my goal weight. About how many carbs a day have you found help your workouts? I may start slowly reintroducing carbs at least on BJJ days and see how it goes. Thanks!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I think how people react to VLC is genetic. For instance if you're Irish or something like that and your culture has survived on potatoes for many years you'll handle the carbs better than an Inuit. Just like I think tropical people handle carbs better because fruits are plentiful and necessary for hydration and other things. This is all just a theory though of course...I'm no scientist.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                          cutting out grains doesn't translate instantly to vlc. it's quite easy to be at 100+ gms of carbs with a bit of starchy tuber and fruit. i think many would do just fine between 50-100.

                          however, as pb mentioned upthread, and i have seen it too, many who try to go lower don't do what they need to do to succeed. for example, the simple necessity of replenishing electrolytes due to the diuretic nature of ketosis, slips through the cracks more often than i can count.

                          i am not trying to disagree that it's not for everybody and also agree that liver and kidney function play a vital role. but i only play a doctor on the interwebs.

                          Comment on cutting out grains etc was related to reducing inflamation not going VLC.
                          I agree there is a certain % that just do it all wrong, you can see a whole lot of newbies ATM who just want everything now and that is a recipe for disaster, your head can get it all, but it takes a while for your body to adapt and change modes, I think most individuals have some degree of metabolic damage that needs to be rectified before VLC.
                          Liver, kidneys, and the rest, there are likely numerous things that need to be rectified.

                          Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                          I don't know about this one...in all of the bloodwork I had in my lifetime, my fasting blood glucose was always perfect. I also had bloodwork done after going VLC paleo, and my blood glucose was unchanged. So, no indication of any type of pre-diabetes, and I'm someone who doesn't thrive on low carb.

                          I also don't know about the leptin thing, either. When i was eating low carb, I never had satiety/hunger issues at all, ever. I just had crippling fatigue, depression, IBS, and hypothyroid issues. I don't know how to tell for sure, but I don't think any of that was related to leptin, since hunger signals were just fine.

                          Just to toss out my own possibly crackpot theory, when I was trying to figure out why I wasn't thriving, one thing I came up with was that I suspected my adrenaline receptors were downregulated (I don't have adrenalinic responses to situations that should provoke it, such as losing control of my car on ice, etc). As we know, adrenaline is needed to convert stored fat into usable energy, so maybe if this function is impaired for some people, they can't get adequate energy from that pathway.



                          I was (and still do) eating liver every week, in addition to a VERY nutrient dense diet that far exceeded the RDA in everything.
                          Your Blood glucose may well be perfect, but that doesn't mean you don't have an issue with glucose metabolism, that was part of the initial point, thyroid and even adrenals may interact to reduce demands just so blood glucose does remain consistant, Leptin levels can be way out before there is any obvious impact on Insulin or Glucose levels.
                          Leptin works in many different areas and also in concert with other hormones, so again, just because you felt your hunger signals were fine does not rule out Leptin resistance.
                          Adrenals may well have been affected, but I see the adrenals much the same as thyroid, they are acting in response to other underlying problems and yes they may well get fatigued through overuse and may need specific care, but the underlying issues need to be addressed. Downregulated adrenal receptors, could also be termed adrenal resistance, just a case of overuse possibly, I don't believe adrenalin is always required to release fatty acids, just in emergency situations the adrenalin is like a turbo to boost supply temporarily, and it may well be if your normal systems FFA release systems are down, then your body reverts to the Adrenals just to get through and if extended over a period this would result in Adrenal fatigue. Thanks for sharing your experience, adds plenty more to my considerations.


                          Originally posted by codered5 View Post
                          I believe you made a similar thread once and i responded that you prob had an adrenal axis issue and most people who do poorly on LC prob do to some degree. Its your body, not the way of eating thats the problem. The reason your blood glucose was unchanged is bc the hormones produced by your adrenals, cortisol, norepinephrine,etc help prop blood sugar up. Once you remove carbs, you are asking your adrenals to do more in terms of stabilizing blood sugar. This causes Hypothalamus, thyroid and/or adrenal issues which is why you had fatigue, depression, etc. Once again, its not that anyone doesnt thrive on relatively low carb, its that carbs for you help your adrenal axis handle the load you place on it. And in recovery, the body tends to get worse before it gets better.
                          As I mentioned above, my feeling is the Adrenals, thyroid etc just respond to an underlying metabolic problem that causes the body to fail in the glucose metabolism, Diabetes or prediabetic conditions have strong corrolations with a variety of chronic diseases, for me this suggests that glucose metabolism may be a key factor in precipitating a variety of conditions and the variation in individuals merely defines the particular condition expressed.

                          Originally posted by krsn89 View Post
                          Keto or VLC as a gateway... I never thought of it this way but this makes sense! I thrived on VLC/keto for months. I had boundless energy, didn't need that much sleep, I was never hungry, and I was feeling great all the time. But then I stopped thriving. I slowly noticed IBS symptoms becoming more pronounced, hair loss and other hypothyroid symptoms coming to light. I thought it was something that would just pass, or maybe I was doing something wrong or not eating something I should have been. After everything I had read, I believed that VLC/keto/ZC made the most absolute sense and that I whatever I was experiencing was something that would just pass. The IBS just got so debilitating after a certain point that I had to change something. Like canuck416, I'm also following the recommendations of the PHD and have noticed quite an improvement in how I'm feeling. I still engage in daily fasting (16/8, sometimes more) but the addition of starches has really changed a lot for me, in a good way. So maybe I was thriving on keto while I was more "damaged," but stopped thriving after that point.
                          My feeling is you were most likely borderline with your conditions and going VLC was just "The straw that broke the camels back" and hence precipitated a cascade of symptoms. Not sure I buy into the Gateway theory, VLC will definately speed up Fat Adaptation and this is fine if you are in reasonable health, but if your health is borderline, then it just may be the final stressor that precipitates a variety of conditions.
                          Personally I think it would be better for nearly everyone to just do a good 12 months straight Primal/Paleo before they consider IF or Ketosis, fine if you just drift into it, but if you are forcing it there is something wrong with that in my eyes.
                          "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by TCates190 View Post
                            I think how people react to VLC is genetic. For instance if you're Irish or something like that and your culture has survived on potatoes for many years you'll handle the carbs better than an Inuit. Just like I think tropical people handle carbs better because fruits are plentiful and necessary for hydration and other things. This is all just a theory though of course...I'm no scientist.
                            Potatos have only been in Ireland 300 years, this is only 10-12 generations hardly enough time for evolutionary adaptation, particularly when you look at the incidence of Coeliac disease in the middle east, the birthplace of agriculture, they suffer the same degree of "Wheat Belly" as the west and they've had 10,000 years to develop immunity
                            Last edited by Omni; 03-19-2013, 01:28 AM.
                            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Most of us descend from a major cultural group that relied on some sort of a starch/grain to feed expanding populations. It could have been rice, oats, millet, corn, wheat, rye, barley, potatoes... whatever grew. But it had to be there. Growth = vegetarian source of protein and carb to keep people from wiping the land out with overgrazing (not that they do not wipe the land out with cultivation of crops, but whatever). Save for nomads of Mongolian steppes, I am hard pressed to think about a numerous cultural group that relied on animal proteins for sustenance. In all likelihood I have a drop of Mongolian blood somewhere, but it sure doesn't make me much better suited for low carbing. That's why it is always a bit funny to me when someone is making a case of: OMG, I am Asian, I am special because we eat so much rice or OMG, I am Italian, and we eat so much pasta.... 90% of us can come up with a cultural statement of this kind in relation to the plant source starch of choice.
                              Last edited by Leida; 03-19-2013, 05:39 AM.
                              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                              When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ecole66 View Post
                                Hank,
                                My situation is very similar to yours. I started out very over weight and am now getting closer to my goal weight. About how many carbs a day have you found help your workouts? I may start slowly reintroducing carbs at least on BJJ days and see how it goes. Thanks!
                                I have been taking in 2 medium-ish sweet potatoes after my Krav maga workouts, about 80g total carbs on top of the 25-30g I have from veggies alone. Sometimes I have plantains, sometimes white potatoes. I'm actually thinking.of going with white potatoes on a more regular basis, still 2 at a time (roughly 120g carbohydrates). Like I said before, just try it out and see what works for you.

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