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Storing fat WITHOUT insulin - ASP

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
    Neither. It's not necessary to restore insulin sensitivity to lose weight, and adopting a ketogenic diet doesn't necessarily restore insulin sensitivity. But losing weight can help to restore insulin sensitivity by reducing fat in the pancreas.
    Originally posted by the link
    Eleven people with type 2 diabetes (49.5  2.5 years, BMI 33.6  1.2 kg/m2, nine male and two female) were studied before and after 1, 4 and 8 weeks of a 2.5 MJ (600 kcal)/day diet. Basal hepatic glucose output, hepatic and peripheral insulin sensitivity and beta cell function were measured. Pancreas and liver triacylglycerol content was measured using three-point Dixon magnetic resonance imaging. An age-, sex- and weight-matched group of eight non-diabetic participants was studied.
    Fascinating. How many of the 600 kCal/day were carbohydrates? Even if it was 100% (Which, I'd bet my copy of Good Calories, Bad Calories that it wasn't), that only adds up to 150g carbohydrates. If it was 60%, you're down to 90g carbohydrate. How are you claiming to know that the carbohydrate restriction didn't have an impact, but the overall caloric restriction did?

    Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    In order to lose weight, you have to consume less energy than you expend. It isn't an oversimplification. People make things too complicated to try and come up with excuses for their actions. Are you not losing weight? You're probably just eating too much and not moving around enough. It really is that easy.
    Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Macro composition plays a role in body composition, nutrient timings play a role in body composition, the aggressiveness of calorie surpluses and deficits affect where our gains and losses in fat mass and lean mass come from.
    I tend to agree with the second guy named ChocoTaco369
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #47
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      Fascinating. How many of the 600 kCal/day were carbohydrates? Even if it was 100% (Which, I'd bet my copy of Good Calories, Bad Calories that it wasn't), that only adds up to 150g carbohydrates.
      It's full of sugar. And corn oil, if I recall. It's called Optifast. My father tried it. What's the point of arguing about absolute versus percentage of carbohydrates? Are you saying it's impossible to lose weight cutting calories and eating mostly carbohydrates? That's what most people do.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
        It's full of sugar. And corn oil, if I recall. It's called Optifast. My father tried it. What's the point of arguing about absolute versus percentage of carbohydrates? Are you saying it's impossible to lose weight cutting calories and eating mostly carbohydrates? That's what most people do.
        How did you get anything remotely like that from what I said?

        I was trying to understand how your claim "But losing weight can help to restore insulin sensitivity by reducing fat in the pancreas" followed from the link you posted. My question (and it's a question, maybe there's something in the link I missed) is how does improved insulin sensitivity in response to feeding 11 people 600 kCal/day prove this is the mechanism rather than the inherent carbohydrate restriction?
        The Champagne of Beards

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        • #49
          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
          My question (and it's a question, maybe there's something in the link I missed) is how does improved insulin sensitivity in response to feeding 11 people 600 kCal/day prove this is the mechanism rather than the inherent carbohydrate restriction?
          This study demonstrates that the twin defects of beta cell failure and insulin resistance that underlie type 2 diabetes can be reversed by acute negative energy balance alone. A hierarchy of response was observed, with a very early change in hepatic insulin sensitivity and a slower change in beta cell function. In the first 7 days of the reduced energy intake, fasting blood glucose and hepatic insulin sensitivity fell to normal, and intrahepatic lipid decreased by 30%. Over the 8 weeks of dietary energy restriction, beta cell function increased towards normal and pancreatic fat decreased. Following the intervention, participants gained 3.1  1.0 kg body weight over 12 weeks, but their HbA1c remained steady while the fat content of both pancreas and liver did not increase. The data are consistent with the hypothesis that the abnormalities of insulin secretion and insulin resistance that underlie type 2 diabetes have a single, common aetiology, i.e. excess lipid accumulation in the liver and pancreas [11]. This provides a unified hypothesis to explain a common disease that previously appeared to require separate disease processes affecting the pancreas and insulin-sensitive tissues.
          That. And if you're interested in why fat ends up in organs where it doesn't belong in the first place: http://vimeo.com/52645372

          It's really not a carbohydrate problem.
          Last edited by Timthetaco; 03-07-2013, 01:13 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
            That. And if you're interested in why fat ends up in organs where it doesn't belong in the first place: Chris Masterjohn — Oxidative Stress & Carbohydrate Intolerance: An Ancestral Perspective on Vimeo

            It's really not a carbohydrate problem.
            I still don't understand your claim that the study demonstrates that it was the gross calorie restricion and not the carbohydrate restriction that led to the increased insulin sensitivity.

            Also, they don't claim to have proven that 2 observed effects (reduction of fatty liver/pancreas and increased insulin sensitivity) are caused by the exact same mechanism. They claim to have come up with that hypothesis as a result of the results of this n=11 trial. Which I think is great, but it certainly doesn't prove that carbohydrate restriction doesn't restore insulin sensitivity and it may suggest the opposite.
            The Champagne of Beards

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            • #51
              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
              Weight loss is entirely caloric. It doesn't matter if it's fat, carbs or protein. Excess dietary fat is stored directly as body fat. Excess dietary carbohydrate is converted into fat. Excess dietary protein is converted into glucose which is then converted into fat. If you overeat, you gain weight. Period. It's calories-in-calories-out. Your best bet is to find the foods that keep you fullest longest so you eat the least, or adopt heavy weight training so when you do overeat, you're more likely to gain a better muscle:fat ratio.
              You are only partially correct. I offer the following example for you to consider.

              Let's say you and I are identical twins. We eat the exact same things, do the exact same amount of work, etc every single day.

              Let's say I am getting sick and go to my doctor, who prescribes a round of Cipro to kill a bug I've picked up.

              We continue to eat the same and workout the same. Will be both gather the same nutrients from that equal amount of food?

              Or similar situation but one twin has a thryroid that isn't functioning properly. Same question.

              Calories in and out is the main equation, but there are variables that can impact it dramatically.
              ----------
              Primal since August 2012. CW: 317.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                ... but it certainly doesn't prove that carbohydrate restriction doesn't restore insulin sensitivity and it may suggest the opposite.
                What would be the mechanism? In your opinion.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
                  What would be the mechanism? In your opinion.
                  Lower levels of serum insulin over the course of a day. I'm not sure I follow the question?
                  The Champagne of Beards

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                  • #54
                    I'm asking why you think a low carbohydrate diet increases insulin sensitivity; what the mechanism is.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
                      What would be the mechanism? In your opinion.
                      Perhaps the magic of gaining weight in a calorie deficit and losing it again when overeating on cero carbs and in calorie surplus?
                      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                      - Schopenhauer

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
                        I'm asking why you think a low carbohydrate diet increases insulin sensitivity; what the mechanism is.
                        For the same reason my alcohol tolerance goes down when I don't drink for an extended period of time. And yeah, 2 weeks is plenty long enough.

                        Less dietary carbohydrate --> less stimulus for the beta cells of the pancreas to secrete insulin --> less serum insulin --> less insulin tolerance in the body tissues

                        I'm not claiming to be a molecular biologist. That makes sense to me. If it's inherently a wrong thought process, please explain why.

                        I still don't understand how you think the study you linked to proves that calorie restriction and calorie restriction alone is responsible for the changes in the subjects. As I mentioned, any 600kCal/day diet is a low carbohydrate diet by definition.
                        The Champagne of Beards

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Perhaps the magic of gaining weight in a calorie deficit and losing it again when overeating on cero carbs and in calorie surplus?
                          Everyone agrees that the definition of losing weight (for the purposes of these discussions, excluding water weight, blah blah) is creating an energy deficit and the definition of gaining weight is creating an energy surplus. How many times are you planning to hang that poor straw man?
                          The Champagne of Beards

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                          • #58
                            Calorie restriction in general leads to a loss of fat, which in that study was the cause of the increased insulin sensitivity, because free fatty acids are lipotoxic. Reduce the fat, reduce the lipotoxicity, restore function to the organs. Nothing to do with carbohydrates.

                            Absence of rapid insulin secretion in response to a rise in plasma glucose is the hallmark of type 2 diabetes [3, 21], and the decline in beta cell function determines the progression towards a need for insulin therapy [2]. However, conventional therapy, even with sulfonylurea, fails to produce more than a small increase in the first-phase insulin response. As a consequence, the rapidity and extent of return of beta cell function in response to dietary energy restriction in the present study is striking. It supports the accumulating information on the inhibitory effect of fatty acids on insulin secretion in vitro and in vivo [2224] and is the first direct evidence in humans that the beta cell defect of type 2 diabetes is reversible by sustained negative energy balance. Prolonged elevation of plasma fatty acids in humans decreases insulin secretion [25, 26], and it has previously been shown that there is an association between pancreatic fat content and type 2 diabetes [2729]. Prior to the onset of spontaneous diabetes in rodents, both total pancreatic fat and islet triacylglycerol content increase sharply [30, 31]. In vitro, chronic saturated fatty acid exposure of beta cells inhibits the acute insulin response to glucose, and removal of fatty acids allows recovery of this response [32].
                            The present data provide clear evidence that decreasing total pancreatic fat is associated with a return of beta cell function. However, it is probable that the negative effect on beta cell function is exerted by toxic intermediaries such as diacylglycerol and ceramides, which change rapidly in response to acute metabolic changes [33], rather than by stored triacylglycerol per se, which acts as an index of fatty acid intermediary concentration.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
                              Calorie restriction in general leads to a loss of fat, which in that study was the cause of the increased insulin sensitivity, because free fatty acids are lipotoxic. Reduce the fat, reduce the lipotoxicity, restore function to the organs. Nothing to do with carbohydrates.
                              How does the study prove that? That's what I keep asking and you keep not answering. How does feeding people a low calorie AND low carbohydrate diet prove that the decreased FAT intake is responsible for the positive changes they see throughout the study?
                              The Champagne of Beards

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                                How are you claiming to know that the carbohydrate restriction didn't have an impact, but the overall caloric restriction did?
                                Common sense really. That and the fact that tonnes of people have lost weight going from eating a moderately high fat moderate carb diet of about 200g of carbs, to a high carb diet of around 300g. Losing weight and restoring insulin sensitivity on low carb/high fat diets is quite common. The biggest factor whether one with fail or succeed on a low carb or low fat diet is personal food preferences and compliance.

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