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  • #91
    Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
    Some of the best movers I have known are scrawny-looking guys.
    How did we get here? The OP just wants to lose fat and maintain muscle. Resistance training is the way to go. I think it's wise to add in mobility and flexibility work as well. On top of that, playing and enjoying your workouts is key for overall health.
    I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
      How did we get here? The OP just wants to lose fat and maintain muscle. Resistance training is the way to go. I think it's wise to add in mobility and flexibility work as well. On top of that, playing and enjoying your workouts is key for overall health.
      "Resistance training" is not what has been pushed in this thread. It has devolved into "EVERYBODY MUST DO THE EXACT SAME WORKOUT!!!!" and bizarre drivel about how bulky powerlifters make the best furniture movers. Because, like, Grok didn't have furniture dollies, so are they primal?
      Last edited by eKatherine; 03-05-2013, 08:58 AM.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
        "Resistance training" is not what has been pushed in this thread. It has devolved into "EVERYBODY MUST DO THE EXACT SAME WORKOUT!!!!" and bizarre drivel about how bulky powerlifters make the best furniture movers.
        Ohhh that's what you meant by "movers" haha I thought you meant movers in the sense of you know, overall movement, dancing, crawling, climbing, etc... sorry about that!

        I agree that this thread got hella stupid rather quick. I do think people should engage in resistance training, it simply makes people healthier across the board - but progressive loading is important, you can't jump into super heavy weight.

        I also do think people SHOULD be able to squat, if you can't squat ass to grass with just your bodyweight you should work on your mobility. Same goes if you can't put your arms overhead, etc. We're here to better ourselves, so if we can't do a "grok squat" we should work on it.

        As far as back squat goes, personally I'm front squatting most of the time. You can't do as much weight on the front squat, but that's just fine by me. It's still challenging to me and I can maintain form much better.
        I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post

          Patently false statement from the guy who calls me a troll.

          Why All Muscle Was Not Created Equal - DeFranco's Training
          LOL, Joe DeFranco, the owner of the world # 1 hardcore Gym for serious athletes says; “But remember that no matter how bad those high-rep sets of leg extensions burn, they will never build the strength, power, and functional hypertrophy of a heavy set of squats or deads!”

          So, this shallow article is what you’re you are clinging to in your bro-scientific “wisdom”? LOL

          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post

          I gave you two ideas for this already. Who do you want by your side in a combat situation? The guy who leg presses all day but lacks the mobility to even get his hands on the bar for the deadlift? Who would you prefer help move your couch up a flight of stairs? You can have the brodude with the "swole" calves in the muscle shirt. I'll have Andy Bolton.
          And I would have chosen a strongman trained guy that had specific training in doing exactly what you are going to do! Running with wounded guy on back, then train for that. Lifting heavy couch up a flight of stairs, then you must train for that. Probably a Greek-Roman or a free style wrestler from the same weight category would be a better pick than your big time squat powerlifter, so don’t expect a good barbell squat to help you in awkward or uncommon situations...

          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post

          I certainly don't purport to know how one tests the strength of a quadriceps. I can only think of meaningful ways of testing the strength of the individual to whom the quadriceps are attached. In your favorite guru Mark Rippetoe's oft-used example: Who can clean more weight, a guy who deadlifts 200 lbs or a guy who deadlifts 500 lbs? The answer is clear and obvious. Are you as confident if we change the word "deadlift" to "leg press?" I'm not.
          As you probably know a deadlift is a part of the clean movement, so not that extraordinary if you take out a part of the movement and train for that then you will also be better on doing the whole movement?

          Let me give you an example then; Who can pull himself up in a one arm chin, a big time deadlifter or a trained gymnast? Powerlifters are according to established bro-science the best “pullers” on the planet right, so then they must also be good in one arms chins, another pull movement? Not so fast, they probably suck in doing it, if they haven’t trained it a lot! So another time; "strength" is always SPECIFIC, the best guys are the guys that has trained for doing exactly the movement we are testing them in.

          And that concludes my discussion on this topic with you, RichMahogany, not that I think it will sink in though...
          Last edited by Gorbag; 03-05-2013, 10:36 AM.
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            LOL, Joe DeFranco, the owner of the world # 1 hardcore Gym for serious athletes says; “But remember that no matter how bad those high-rep sets of leg extensions burn, they will never build the strength, power, and functional hypertrophy of a heavy set of squats or deads!”

            So, this shallow article is what you’re you are clinging to in your bro-scientific “wisdom”? LOL
            Forget the source, try reading the content of the article. I was refuting your earlier claim. I don't get as upset as you do when we disagree with each other, but at least I don't resort to intellectual dishonesty/strawmen/ad hominem attacks in place of actually addressing the point of contention.

            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            And I would have chosen a strongman trained guy that had specific training in doing exactly what you are going to do! Running with wounded guy on back, then train for that. Lifting heavy couch up a flight of stairs, then you must train for that. Probably a Greek-Roman or a free style wrestler from the same weight category would be a better pick than your big time squat powerlifter, so don’t expect a good barbell squat to help you in awkward or uncommon situations...
            I think your strongman-trained guy and your wrestlers are great choices. Especially the strongman. How do you think they train for general strength (as opposed to event-specific training)? Leg press machine or barbell?

            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            As you probably know squatting is a part of the clean movement, so not that extraordinary if you take out a part of the movement and train for that then you will also be better on doing the whole movement? May I suggest front squat rather than the back squat?
            I believe I said deadlift. I'm talking about strength. Of course you'll get better at a specific motion if you train the motion. But being GENERALLY strong comes in REAL handy if we're talking about moving heavy weight. And the low-bar back squat allows you to recruit more muscle fibers and move more weight (and with a much less severe knee angle, for the record) than the front squat. Hence it allows you to get GENERALLY stronger.

            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            Let me give you an example then; Who can pull himself up in a one arm chin, a big time deadlifter or a trained gymnast? Powerlifters are according to established bro-science the best “pullers” on the planet right, so then they must also be good in one arms chins, another pull movement? Not so fast, they probably suck in doing it, if they haven’t trained it a lot! So another time; "strength" is always SPECIFIC, the best guys are the guys that has trained for doing exactly the movement we are testing them in.

            And that concludes my discussion on this topic with you, RichMahogany, not that I think it will sink in though...
            Quit stomping your feet and storming off like a little girl who got told she can't have a pony. You're the worst arch nemesis ever. Unbunch your panties, sir.

            You're confusing fitness with strength. My powerlifter example would certainly lose to your gymnast example in a chin-up contest. That doesn't really address the issue of which of the two is stronger though.
            The Champagne of Beards

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            • #96
              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post

              I believe I said deadlift. I'm talking about strength. Of course you'll get better at a specific motion if you train the motion. But being GENERALLY strong comes in REAL handy if we're talking about moving heavy weight. And the low-bar back squat allows you to recruit more muscle fibers and move more weight (and with a much less severe knee angle, for the record) than the front squat. Hence it allows you to get GENERALLY stronger.
              Yeah, deadlift, I changed it, but my point still stands, deadlift is the start and a part of a clean, se my changes above.

              "Generally stronger" is nothing less than empty metaphysic's if we can't test it in some way, so give me an example from excercise physiology that operates with a concept of 'general strength'.

              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post

              You're confusing fitness with strength. My powerlifter example would certainly lose to your gymnast example in a chin-up contest. That doesn't really address the issue of which of the two is stronger though.
              Stronger for what? 'General strength' as you seem to use it, is empty metaphysic's if it is not testable, strength must be related to something SPECIFIC...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                Yeah, deadlift, I changed it, but my point still stands, deadlift is the start and a part of a clean, se my changes above.
                I'm not sure what your argument is on this point. Sorry, I've lost you now. What is this point that still stands?

                Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                "Generally stronger" is nothing less than empty metaphysic's if we can't test it in some way, so give me an example from excercise physiology that operates with a concept of 'general strength'.
                Why do I have to give you an example of exercise physiology that operates with a concept of 'general strength' to prove that someone who lifts actually heavy weight is stronger than someone who pushes a machine with his legs? You can leg press 2000 tons but can't move a big rock out of your way. Are you strong? As strong as a guy who squats 500 pounds to parallel and stabilizes the weight on his own?

                Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                Stronger for what? 'General strength' as you seem to use it, is empty metaphysic's if it is not testable, strength must be related to something SPECIFIC...
                Strength must be applicable in general or its useless. If it wasn't a general adaptation, then athletes wouldn't weight train at all unless they were powerlifters or weightlifters. Or every exercise would just be a higher-resistance version of their actual sports motion. But, to use your own example, wrestlers seem to have found that being GENERALLY stronger is advantageous in their sports, so they lift heavy things.
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  I'm not sure what your argument is on this point. Sorry, I've lost you now. What is this point that still stands?
                  That the example from Rippetoe is trivial and im my posting I questioned; "... not that extraordinary if you take out a part of the movement and train for that then you will also be better on doing the whole movement?"

                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  Why do I have to give you an example of exercise physiology that operates with a concept of 'general strength' to prove that someone who lifts actually heavy weight is stronger than someone who pushes a machine with his legs? You can leg press 2000 tons but can't move a big rock out of your way. Are you strong? As strong as a guy who squats 500 pounds to parallel and stabilizes the weight on his own?
                  Depends on the testing protocol: If the testing protocol for "leg strength" is one legged machine legpress and the legpress specialist guy presses more than the squat guy, then guess who has the strongest leg strength?

                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  Strength must be applicable in general or its useless. If it wasn't a general adaptation, then athletes wouldn't weight train at all unless they were powerlifters or weightlifters. Or every exercise would just be a higher-resistance version of their actual sports motion. But, to use your own example, wrestlers seem to have found that being GENERALLY stronger is advantageous in their sports, so they lift heavy things.
                  When the relevant musclefibres get bigger they get get stronger from a physiological perspective, and that gives you a potential for a "carry over" effect to other activities. Closer to your concept of 'general strength' than that I don't think you can come ...
                  Last edited by Gorbag; 03-05-2013, 12:01 PM.
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Barbell compound lifts such as squats are the most effective and efficient way to gain strength. These lifts allow people to train an enormous amount of muscle through a full range of motion using the heaviest weight possible within a natural movement pattern. There is nothing that will make your legs as strong as training them with full squats, for example.

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                    • Originally posted by quikky View Post
                      Barbell compound lifts such as squats are the most effective and efficient way to gain strength. These lifts allow people to train an enormous amount of muscle through a full range of motion using the heaviest weight possible within a natural movement pattern. There is nothing that will make your legs as strong as training them with full squats, for example.
                      Well, according to Mr. Gorbag, you gain more strength by doing the leg press. So long as you pick the leg press as the measure of strength. I think that's his main argument here. Personally, I'll probably just keep on squatting and deadlifting.
                      The Champagne of Beards

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                        Well, according to Mr. Gorbag, you gain more strength by doing the leg press. So long as you pick the leg press as the measure of strength. I think that's his main argument here. Personally, I'll probably just keep on squatting and deadlifting.
                        I wouldn't waste your time arguing with Gorbag on anything strength related - he's been half-squatting for the past 35 years:

                        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1078706

                        Just let him live in his world of specific strength, massive leg presses, and half-squats, he's strong in his own special way.

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                        • What, another bro-scientist joining us talking about "strength" or "general strength" without defining it!

                          Define "strength" and give us an adequate testing protocol, that's far better than endless bro discussions of an abstract concept of 'strength'. And yes, it is not uncommon to scientifically test of "leg strength" by doing one-legged press, or even leg-extensions, so what does that tell us about the concept of "strength"?
                          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                          - Schopenhauer

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                          • Contortionism is much underrated.

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                            • Gorbag, I've defined strength for you before. What happened was you had nothing to say, and you resorted to personal attacks and withdrew from the argument. Why would I bother going down the same road again?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                                Contortionism is much underrated.
                                It makes for a fabulous circus act though.

                                Last edited by magicmerl; 03-05-2013, 02:19 PM.
                                Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                                Griff's cholesterol primer
                                5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                                Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                                TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                                bloodorchid is always right

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