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  • #76
    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I think once you get use to the wider stance you can pull more weight that way. But is that a good thing? You shorten the distance you have to move the weigh, making it easier. But I don't do deadlifts to make em easy. I do agree with rip on things like no bounce and dead stop and whatnot.
    Well, some competitors pull conventional, some sumo, so I would guess that whether a person can lift more that way is dependent on individual characteristics. But I digress.

    We're not really saying different things. The absolute optimal way to do something is not the only way to achieve a goal.

    We shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. That's why the Primal Blueprint law isn't "follow a novice linear progression of squats, deadlifts, bench press, and press," but simply "Lift Heavy Things"
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      LOL exactly. Don't worry bout it. Your gains speak for themselves. Muscle is muscle. You can build it through a variety of methods and programs. I'm up to my eyeballs in BroScience on this thread. Nothing you can do or say when people are so dogmatic.

      Hey I agree with Lyle on something!

      Lyle says: "Answer: First and foremost, while I’m sure my answer will offend the hardcore/hardheaded lifters, there is no requirement to perform squats (back or front) to build big legs (or even build leg strength). I know that this contradicts everything that has ever been written on the Internet but the idea that someone must squat to get big is mainly a lot of macho nonsense." Squat vs. Leg Press for Big Legs | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
      Lyle McDonald is spot on in that article and very relevant to myself! I have done squats on and off for many, many years but due to relative short torso and long femurs I really suck in doing heavy squats, compared to many other lifts. And the impact on the lower back is far too high compared to the legs, but I have done them anyhow, but more as an lower back exercise. In leg press on the other hand, I am pressing 900 lbs (20 plates) for 40 - 50 reps, I am first doing around 20 reps without locking out, then taking 5 deep breaths, then 10 - 12 new reps, then continuing rep - pause until I do 40 - 50 total reps. Some of the strongest squatters in my gym seem to struggle hard by doing 8 -10 total reps and 12 plates... So who is strongest between a guy that can squat heavy but not do good in legpress or a guy that do best in legpress but do rather poor in squats? Well, that question depends on how we decides to test "leg strength", on a leg strength maschine I would be strongest in my gym, but if doing squat I loose to a typical squat dude! Also remember that "strength" is always specific, so there are excellent barbell back squat guys that may suck in one legged pistol squats...
      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

      - Schopenhauer

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
        who is strongest between a guy that can squat heavy but not do good in legpress or a guy that do best in legpress but do rather poor in squats?
        The guy that can squat heavy is stronger. His strength is useful in scenarios where he has to stabilize a weight, such as those actually encountered in real life.
        The Champagne of Beards

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        • #79
          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
          The guy that can squat heavy is stronger. His strength is useful in scenarios where he has to stabilize a weight, such as those actually encountered in real life.
          "Strength" is always spesific and there are no garanties for any "carry over effect" from heavy barbell squats to real life situations; there are big ass powerlifter dudes that can't even stabilize their own bodyweight in doing a one legged pistol squat properly. What does that tell us?
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            "Strength" is always spesific and there are no garanties for any "carry over effect" from heavy barbell squats to real life situations; there are big ass powerlifter dudes that can't even stabilize their own bodyweight in doing a one legged pistol squat properly. What does that tell us?
            It tells us that the pistol squat is a parlor trick. Strength is the most general of fitness adaptations. Who would you want to help you move heavy furniture? Who would you want to have your back in a war zone? A guy who can squat 600 pounds and can't do a pistol, or a skinny guy who can do 10 pistols but maxes out his squats at 185? I know my answer.
            The Champagne of Beards

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            • #81
              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
              It tells us that the pistol squat is a parlor trick. Strength is the most general of fitness adaptations. Who would you want to help you move heavy furniture? Who would you want to have your back in a war zone? A guy who can squat 600 pounds and can't do a pistol, or a skinny guy who can do 10 pistols but maxes out his squats at 185? I know my answer.
              LOL, this you have from an article of high priest Rippetoe, I am not sure that the best 1 RM squat powerlifter makes the best furniture mover either, or warrior, and I am not talking about skinny dudes versus powerlifters so that's a strawman! Basically strength is always specific, you get better on what you are training for, "the principle of specifity" and you may get some "carry over effect" as well, especially if growing more muscles along the way...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                LOL, this you have from an article of high priest Rippetoe, I am not sure that the best 1 RM squat powerlifter makes the best furniture mover either, or warrior, and I am not talking about skinny dudes versus powerlifters so that's a strawman! Basically strength is always specific, you get better on what you are training for, "the principle of specifity" and you may get some "carry over effect" as well, especially if growing more muscles along the way...
                Of course strength is a general adaptation. Do you argue obviously wrong things just for the entertainment value?
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  Of course strength is a general adaptation. Do you argue obviously wrong things just for the entertainment value?
                  Are you starting to troll again? Physiologically a stronger muscle is a muscle that get bigger and there are no general adaption execpt that. So when we are talking about strength in exercise physiology we must also ask the question how do we test the strength, and this is always SPECIFIC! How do we test the strength of the quadriceps? By squats? By leg-extension? One legged legpress? Pick your type of testing and the specialist guys of those movements will get the best results...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    If the only discussion here is the OPTIMAL way to add muscle, I'd agree on doing squats, DLs, and Bench Presses.

                    But is that the discussion? A lot of people just hate the gym. Fine, go for walks, hikes, swim, go to the park and do pull ups, do push-ups. You NEVER have to do squats, deadlifts, or bench presses and you can be perfectly fit. (In fact, you can be extremely fit.) If you are looking for the OPTIMAL way to add msucle, then yes, they are awesome.

                    I do Deadlifts and bench presses because they make me strong and I LOVE the way I feel after I do them. I do squats because they make me stronger, but I dread doing them. I am strongly considering replacing squats just for that reason. I have no need in my life for things I don't enjoy doing. (And I've given them years of chances...but I've never enjoyed them.)

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                    • #85
                      Abs are revealed in the kitchen but built in the gym.
                      Work hard, eat clean and have fun.
                      Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                      PS
                      Don't forget to play!

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                      • #86
                        Some people in this thread are talking about health. Some are talking about strength. And some are talking about muscle size. And these people are all poking at the invisible places that the other person isn't even arguing. There aren't even any straw men here. Just a few people who are so bad at outlining their thoughts that we're now eight levels deep in miscommunication. It's kind of hilarious, actually. You can't even agree on what you disagree on because your schools of thought are so diverse.
                        Crohn's, doing SCD

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                        • #87
                          But is that the discussion? A lot of people just hate the gym. Fine, go for walks, hikes, swim, go to the park and do pull ups, do push-ups. You NEVER have to do squats, deadlifts, or bench presses and you can be perfectly fit. (In fact, you can be extremely fit.) If you are looking for the OPTIMAL way to add msucle, then yes, they are awesome.
                          This.... all day long. In order to be effective, above all, you must DO the exercise. Thank you for reminding me. Most people just need to move. There 8,654,789 ways to exercise. Any that don't land you in a hospital are better than sitting on a couch. Some are more effective than others. If you actually go to Yoga 3 days a week and run 3 days a week, that's a lot better than taking on a weight training program that you hate and won't actually do.

                          Yeah, if you want a 6 pack, you need a lot more focus in diet and fitness.

                          http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                          Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            Are you starting to troll again?
                            Yeah, I'm the troll...

                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            Physiologically a stronger muscle is a muscle that get bigger and there are no general adaption execpt that.
                            Patently false statement from the guy who calls me a troll.

                            Why All Muscle Was Not Created Equal - DeFranco's Training

                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            So when we are talking about strength in exercise physiology we must also ask the question how do we test the strength, and this is always SPECIFIC!
                            I gave you two ideas for this already. Who do you want by your side in a combat situation? The guy who leg presses all day but lacks the mobility to even get his hands on the bar for the deadlift? Who would you prefer help move your couch up a flight of stairs? You can have the brodude with the "swole" calves in the muscle shirt. I'll have Andy Bolton.

                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            How do we test the strength of the quadriceps? By squats? By leg-extension? One legged legpress? Pick your type of testing and the specialist guys of those movements will get the best results...
                            I certainly don't purport to know how one tests the strength of a quadriceps. I can only think of meaningful ways of testing the strength of the individual to whom the quadriceps are attached. In your favorite guru Mark Rippetoe's oft-used example: Who can clean more weight, a guy who deadlifts 200 lbs or a guy who deadlifts 500 lbs? The answer is clear and obvious. Are you as confident if we change the word "deadlift" to "leg press?" I'm not.
                            The Champagne of Beards

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                            • #89
                              Nobody has to do barbell training. It's kind of a short cut, nothing more.

                              There are plenty of people in the gym to observe. The girls on the treadmills are skinny like how most girls want to be. The girls on the weights have more definition or else they are fat or body-built. The girls who never pick up a barbell but do either machines and chinups have more defined muscles than I do, but maybe that is only because they are thin enough to do chinups.

                              I can't tell another woman what is best because I don't think there is a best. I like barbells because of the reward of making progress and because it's a shortcut to strength, but they do not make a fat girl slim and they certainly are not the only way to get strong or healthy.
                              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                              • #90
                                Some of the best movers I have known are scrawny-looking guys.

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