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  • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
    Yeah... I'm experiencing something similar. The difference in my hips between when I'm starving myself and eating 2500-3000K a day of good food is max two inches (I don't weigh myself). And actually it's probably working out better, cos' I cant sustain it when I starve - i just end up binging on shit food, putting on weight, then being depressed and sedentary. Similarly, when I'm eating this much I actually want to exercise.

    The more I'm turning this over in my head, the more it makes sense. I'm sick of the yo-yo weight and not being able to eat to my appetite. It's not a way to live. The minimal extra weight is worth it (although I have a strong suspicion that if I keep going with this I'll lose some of it wthout trying. Think it's already happening...)
    This.... It becomes a binge/starve kind of thing for me too and it's just generally mentally and emotionally unhealthy. I'll take the extra couple of inches and keep my sanity.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PaleoMom View Post
      @ Yogabare - how long have you been doing this now?
      Hey PaleoMom,

      I've been experimenting with it since November. It started as an intuitive realisation that I was "doing it wrong". I started VLC Primal last April at 19% bf, dropped to probably 18%, but after a month I completely lost control of my eating and a dormant ED flared up. I continued with VLC Primal. By November I was a mess. I had gained about 10 lbs and I felt like crap. At that point I realised I needed to do something different, so I started stuffing myself with nutrient dense food, three times a day, and started eating beetroot and squash to get more carbs. I didn't binge for a month, then lost patience because I wasn't loosing weight and starved myself for a week. The weight literally flew off me. But then I binged and put it all back on. This was so disheartening.

      I had taken a break from posting on MDA but at that point I had returned and I saw posts from Zach and Derp. I found their perspective interesting cos it was something quite new. I started PMing with both of them and they got me on to Matt Stone. Then I did something drastic and I followed the Matt Stone junk food protocol. For a month, I ate whatever I wanted. Cookies for breakfast, camarmel slices for my elevenses, ice cream whenever I wanted, lots of nutella, and kit kat chunkies. In addition I started eating potatoes, rice and dairy again, and kept eating loads of nuts, meat etc. Though most of the time I was too stuffed with crap to fit much good food in!

      Anyway, after a month I was unbelievably depressed, had no energy, and felt like total shit. I ODed on junk food. The irony is that I probably only put on another inch around my hips and had gone up another 5lbs . I stopped binging and I started eating proper food, to satiation point. My measurements didn't change. After a while of doing this, I felt warmer, started having more energy and began exercising more. I naturally started cycling calories and my weight started to drop. I also cut back on dairy as I had gotten addicted to it...! I dropped about an inch in my hips.

      However, this was actually bad news for me as well because I started counting my calories and macros and got too into making sure I was eating less and less on my "low calorie" days. By cutting dairy I had also cut out another food group - one that I really like. As if by magic, what happened? Yip, I binged. First time in two months. Of course, due to the epic nature of my binges, I put that inch back on

      After the binge I started reading this thread and it's been incredibly inspiring to me. i have to stop this madness. I can't live like this anymore, binging, starving, counting calories etc. So in the last week I've just again been eating really nutrient dense food (mostly bone broth) - lots of carbs, lots of fat, lots of protein. Every day. And started taking supplements. I'm estimating that Im at around 2,500 - 3,000 cals a day (i'm not counting anymore) and I've been sleeping really well.

      This morning I got a shock cos' I measured myself and the inch I'd gained back was gone. I weighed myself and I've dropped 7 lbs! To be fair I hadnt weighed myself in a while and I could have lost muscle so I don't take the scales too seriously. But the meaurement tape doesn't like. I don't know if this is the eating or maybe that my dairy consumption is more moderate now? I live in a perpetual state of bloatedness, so it's not that.

      Anyway, I have the deep intuitive feeling that this is the right way of doing things. Keep going with it! I will too. It is so so liberating to think that I don't have to skip meals anymore or go to bed hungry.

      You know what really interesting too? I started Primal reading Taubes who said calories don't matter. Then I started reading teh MDA forum that said they did (the current thread on it is a wonderful example). Now I'm starting to think again that there's something else to it. Don't know what it is. Maybe it's that when I eat all this gorgeous food to satiation point, I'm giving my body the signal that I love and respect it which makes me feel free, and reduces stress. I usually suffer from insomnia, so the deep sleep is amazing.

      Phew, long post!
      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

      - Ray Peat

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Zach View Post
        Yep, the more you focus on rehabing your body with sleep, stress management, exercise and lots of nurishing food and easier it will be to lose fat when your body is ready. Like i said earlier, i actually gained fat on a low carb diet intended for fat loss, lost a little when i was stuffing myself more months and now i am leaning out under 10% bf while eating a diet of 60% carbs and lots of not so great foods (french toast, pizza, pancakes).

        I do think it takes a bit of experimenting to find whats right but it is certainly possible.
        I'm incredibly grateful to yourself and Derp's contribution to MDA. I learned that my health is more dependent on getting rid of food phobias than eliminating food groups.

        Edit: Actually, I have to give credit where credit due. Primal eating has been amazing for me too. It's taught me to really tune in with my body. I've learned that wheat, legumes, and too much fibre really hurts me. I seem to have a very sensitive stomach. So now I really listen to how I respond to certain food, and a bad response puts me off that food. (I've learned that pure sugar is innocuous for me... thanks Danny Roddy!)
        Last edited by YogaBare; 03-13-2013, 11:48 AM.
        "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

        In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

        - Ray Peat

        Comment


        • YogaBare,

          Thanks for sharing all of that. Sounds like it is really working great for you!

          I'm especially needing to read stories like yours this morning. I just started my period yesterday and was at an all time high weight/measurements. Pretty close to the same today. I know it has only been a bit over two weeks which doesn't sound like much written down, but being in the middle of it feels like it is forever! I haven't eaten freely like this since I was 10 though, so no quick changes can be expected. My temp does seem great though. Yesterday it did the menstration drop down to 98.1, but today is right back up to 98.5 again. I'm please with that and my energy is up a bit today. Since yesterday my appetite has gone down quite a bit but I have kept above 2500 anyway.
          PaleoMom's Diet Recovery Journal
          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82059.html

          Comment


          • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
            You know what really interesting too? I started Primal reading Taubes who said calories don't matter. Then I started reading teh MDA forum that said they did (the current thread on it is a wonderful example). Now I'm starting to think again that there's something else to it. Don't know what it is. Maybe it's that when I eat all this gorgeous food to satiation point, I'm giving my body the signal that I love and respect it which makes me feel free, and reduces stress. I usually suffer from insomnia, so the deep sleep is amazing.
            I've been going back to old books too I really did read things with a calorie restriction filter on the whole time. I was looking at The Smarter Science of Slim again and realizing the whole point of the book was that calories don't matter and I still didn't notice it! There is also the Gabriel Method, Taubes of course and most of the paleo books, they all focus on eating good food and not worrying about how much. My trouble comes in when they say things about how a person will naturally eat less food this way or other similar comments. Once I read that, then I read the rest of the book with the notion that others who eat nothing but garbage can switch over and lose by not counting calories, but I gain at 1200 so that part of the advice doesn't apply to me. So, I would go right along restricting calories.
            PaleoMom's Diet Recovery Journal
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82059.html

            Comment


            • Originally posted by PaleoMom View Post
              YogaBare,

              Thanks for sharing all of that. Sounds like it is really working great for you!

              I'm especially needing to read stories like yours this morning. I just started my period yesterday and was at an all time high weight/measurements. Pretty close to the same today. I know it has only been a bit over two weeks which doesn't sound like much written down, but being in the middle of it feels like it is forever! I haven't eaten freely like this since I was 10 though, so no quick changes can be expected. My temp does seem great though. Yesterday it did the menstration drop down to 98.1, but today is right back up to 98.5 again. I'm please with that and my energy is up a bit today. Since yesterday my appetite has gone down quite a bit but I have kept above 2500 anyway.
              Hey Paleomom,

              Keep the faith. It's a massive experiment but at least there are a few of us doing it now. It remains to be seen if it works... but like I said in another post - it's a good time of year to try this And I'm consoling myself that I can always return to my yo-yo dieting habits (how appealing does that sound now? Ha!)

              The difference between what we're doing is that I'm eating to appetite (which is huge!), whereas you're going over over satiation point. Can you share what foods you're eating?
              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

              - Ray Peat

              Comment


              • Originally posted by PaleoMom View Post
                I've been going back to old books too I really did read things with a calorie restriction filter on the whole time. I was looking at The Smarter Science of Slim again and realizing the whole point of the book was that calories don't matter and I still didn't notice it! There is also the Gabriel Method, Taubes of course and most of the paleo books, they all focus on eating good food and not worrying about how much. My trouble comes in when they say things about how a person will naturally eat less food this way or other similar comments. Once I read that, then I read the rest of the book with the notion that others who eat nothing but garbage can switch over and lose by not counting calories, but I gain at 1200 so that part of the advice doesn't apply to me. So, I would go right along restricting calories.
                I think the whole thing is more complex than anyone realises. I mean, some foods increase metabolism, some suppress thyroid, and if you have an intolerance to something eating it could make you lose weight or gain. It's interesting that this thread is going in tandem with the "calories count" one! Let's hope we come to a resolution through N=1 I'm thinking I should proba track my calories just to be sure I'm eating as much as I think, but I really don't want to.
                "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                - Ray Peat

                Comment


                • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                  Hey Paleomom,

                  Keep the faith. It's a massive experiment but at least there are a few of us doing it now. It remains to be seen if it works... but like I said in another post - it's a good time of year to try this And I'm consoling myself that I can always return to my yo-yo dieting habits (how appealing does that sound now? Ha!)

                  The difference between what we're doing is that I'm eating to appetite (which is huge!), whereas you're going over over satiation point. Can you share what foods you're eating?
                  Yeah, no more yo-yo dieting. I'd rather work on loving my fatter self if I have to (hopefully it won't come to that)

                  I only ate over satiation point at first. After the first few days my hunger was really strong and I wanted to eat more even when my stomach was crying at me to stop. After the first week though I was no longer uncomfortable eating up to 4,000 calories and I just ate to satiation, the difference being that it took a lot to feel satiatied.

                  Things I'm eating regularly:
                  raw milk kefir and yogurts
                  apples, pears, oranges, bananas
                  baby green salads with cherry tomatoes and homemade salad dressing using local EVOO
                  kombucha and ginger beer
                  fermented veggies before lunch and dinner (kefir and yogurt at breakfast)
                  veggie soups with bone broth
                  beef stew
                  coconut bark (raw coconut oil, dried coconut, raw honey and macadamia nuts)
                  cod liver oil
                  1 T. of raw liver daily (cut into little pieces, frozen and swallowed whole
                  hamburgers, steak or chicken
                  broccoli, brussels sprouts, cauliflower, onions
                  lots of pasture butter
                  raw milk
                  raw honey
                  yams and peeled russet potatoes
                  eggs
                  raw cheese (for omelets)
                  celtic sea salt
                  I supp. with kelp tablets, magnesium citrate, and vitamin D3 with k2 in it and CLO

                  All our food is organic and all of our animals foods come from local organic farms that pasture raise and feed their animals, the raw cheese isn't local though.
                  PaleoMom's Diet Recovery Journal
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82059.html

                  Comment


                  • Doing a gluten challenge so you can have a biopsy is like telling your doctor about symptoms that disappeared when you went primal, and then him making you go on a full junk food diet for months to see if it causes symptoms of diabetes or heart disease to come back. In order to diagnose they need to recreate the illness.

                    Comment


                    • PaleoMom, wow your food list is very inpressive! You got to be doing a lot of good, eating all that. One thing to try and remember is listening to your hunger signals. Never get truly hungry before you eat and mever try to feel beyond stuffed. Never limit a food you crave and never second guess or feel guilt about your eating. It does take a long time and there will be plenty of ups and downs, you will figure it out. It took me going on three years of yoyoing and hoping around to figure what works best for me. That is on top of the 5 years that i ruined my health in pursuit of health.

                      Yogabare, your welcome and great posts! There is much more to everything and everything is connected. Basically all aspects of your life can effect your body, diet is probably the main factor but certainly not the only one.

                      Your binge on junk food was probably not good for you but it did give you that since of empowerment again that you can eat anything and it wont kill you or make you fat instantly. I do think to truly heal you need to be eating mostly good foods but the occasional junk certainly is not a huge issue.

                      I could really write a book on the connections between certain foods, health and lifestyle. It took me years to know what i do about the way my body works and i still have a ways to go but i feel like i am finally there in terms of really healing myself.

                      Comment


                      • That sounds like a great range of foods Paleomom. Keep on keeping on

                        Originally posted by Zach View Post
                        Your binge on junk food was probably not good for you but it did give you that since of empowerment again that you can eat anything and it wont kill you or make you fat instantly. I do think to truly heal you need to be eating mostly good foods but the occasional junk certainly is not a huge issue.
                        Actually, it felt liberating for the first week or so cos I was no longer depriving myself. But I quickly felt like shit. It taught me that junk food is a drug to me and eating it isn't worth it. My little relapse cemented that realisation. I get a much better buzz off bananas!
                        "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                        In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                        - Ray Peat

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Zach View Post
                          PaleoMom, wow your food list is very inpressive! You got to be doing a lot of good, eating all that. One thing to try and remember is listening to your hunger signals. Never get truly hungry before you eat and mever try to feel beyond stuffed. Never limit a food you crave and never second guess or feel guilt about your eating. It does take a long time and there will be plenty of ups and downs, you will figure it out. It took me going on three years of yoyoing and hoping around to figure what works best for me. That is on top of the 5 years that i ruined my health in pursuit of health.
                          Since the bloating went away this is exactly how I have been eating. I eat at meal times even though I'm not really hungry yet and I stop when I'm filled up but haven't eaten anything past what I wanted to. I have now been feeling really in tune with what foods my body wants. Strong desires for a salad one minute and yams later on, time for some yogurt or meat. I feel like my body is really speaking loud and clear to me now. Funny thing is how I am eating all the same foods I was eating before but now that the calories are up I'm getting all these new signals from my body. Very cool.

                          Just to be clear I don't eat all those things EVERY day, but over 2-3 days those are what get repeated.
                          PaleoMom's Diet Recovery Journal
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82059.html

                          Comment


                          • Hi everyone,

                            One of these days I'm going to have to read this entire thread. I'm crazy busy with work right now so haven't had time. I've been more or less doing this experiment for about a month now. Well, not really. It's just that a month ago, I started studying for an exam, and I stopped counting and restricting calories at that time. When I got home after the exam last week, I decided to not go back to counting and restricting for a while. I'm not trying to hit a certain caloric level, just not restricting.

                            Dieting has never worked for me. I can't think of a single instance during my entire life where I can say, I went on a diet and lost weight and kept it off for more than a month. The only time in my life when I've lost a significant amount of weight was through exercise alone, with no caloric restriction whatsoever. So, as PaleoMom said at the beginning of this thread, it is the definition of insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result. Since I've never EVER actually lost weight through dieting, why keep trying? But I'm also scared because I gained all this weight back in August or September (okay it's only really 5-7 pounds, but it feels like a lot to me, and a lot of my shirts no longer fit properly because all the fat went to my belly and now it bulges in an unsightly manner), and I'm afraid that I'll just keep gaining.

                            So like today. This morning I had a nice hunk of beef (made roast beef last night), some roasted carrots and onions, a large sweet potato, and a small amount of flax meal "cereal" (flax meal with some chocolate protein powder). Didn't eat lunch. Then tonight, I wasn't really hungry but had to work late so I got a burger (supposedly hormone- and antibiotic-free meat). I only ate the meat (two patties), lettuce, tomatoes, and pickles. I also had a Granny Smith apple. Now, I feel super guilty because I wasn't really even that hungry when I got the burger.

                            Edit: Since we're talking blasphemy here, what do you guys think about this. Heather, at Heather eats Almond Butter, is a blogger whom I used to read. I recently read some of her posts (haven't been following for a while), and she said that she tried primal and gained weight. She used to be overweight when she was younger and lost all of the weight (and is now very slim) eating oatmeal/oat bran and running. See, I used to eat lots of oatmeal and oat bran too, and when I lost all that weight, I was eating oatmeal and oat bran and running. While Heather likes her oats with almond butter, I always preferred mine with sardines and eggs. I make a porridge out of it. So, is it possible that oats aren't as bad for some people as they are for others? (That is, do you think I can go back to eating oats, and if I did, would I even be primal anymore?) Another thing that's good with oatmeal is bacon and hardboiled eggs. I crumble the bacon and egg yolk into the oatmeal--best breakfast ever.
                            Last edited by diene; 03-13-2013, 07:07 PM.

                            My journal

                            Comment


                            • Welcome to the club, where "feel(ing) super guilty because I wasn't really even that hungry when I got the burger" is unnecessary.

                              Did you really have to force it down or did you feel guilty because you felt that you *could* have done without it and that would have been the *correct* thing to do to help you lose fat?
                              Last edited by PaleoMom; 03-13-2013, 07:08 PM.
                              PaleoMom's Diet Recovery Journal
                              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82059.html

                              Comment


                              • Not sure what to think of this french study. They looked at dietary intakes and charted this along with BMI, they certainly found BMI to go up with caloric intake. Normal weight women my age were eating around 1600-1700 calories.

                                http://gremaq.univ-tlse1.fr/perso/dubois/bdo1.pdf
                                PaleoMom's Diet Recovery Journal
                                http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread82059.html

                                Comment

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