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  • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
    What? why do you compare ATP to glucose, do you think that ATP is used by the brain for "mental clarity"? And "anti-Primal ideology", LOL, because I don't think long term ketosis is healthy???
    Actually, I compared the ATP yields of glucose to that of ketones. I said nothing about mental clarity, although I would posit that ketosis has the advantage in that department also. What is your exact claim about the mechanism of long-term ketosis being unhealthy?
    The Champagne of Beards

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
      I totally agree about the live and let live philosophy of macros. So silly to start pointing fingers (either direction).

      I find what you say about energy levels interesting though because, for me, it is the exact opposite. HFLC makes me feel like I am running on rocket fuel. Also, it is not just for losing weight. I am at my goal weight and continue to do it anyway. And I would still do so even if I didn't have epilepsy. (Other silly thing that bugs me is people saying that ketosis is only advisable for those with medical conditions.) It is the food I like and the energy I wouldn't want to give up. Unless I undergo some great biochemical shift, I will probably always eat this way.
      I agree too, and I am the same as you PB with energy.
      Love it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Neckhammer
        He simply made a statement of fact regarding metabolism. I just picked the first page that gave a decent breakdown on google for you BIOG 1105-1106 | Cornell Introductory Biology, Individualized Instruction . Turned out to be cornell university biology page, so about as unbiased a source as you can find

        As to the actual thread at hand I don't really think anyone can deny that being in ketosis can be a terrific appetite suppressant.

        I'm quite agnostic about someones macro's these days. I just dislike blatant ignorance. And I consider statements like this..... "You are burning your candle in both ends Paleobird, in ketosis you are high on adrenalin, thats what gives you the mental energy - the rocket fuel"..." to qualify as such. Without knowing or seeing PB's bloodwork there is no way for you to make such an absurd claim.
        Well, I do not deny the negative efect on the appetite in ketosis, but going around with high adrenalin levels over years are very taxing on an organism - also the human body. But maybe I am wrong, that this mental clarity comes from something else, but then someone better put evidence on the table, because so far I have not seen much. Ketone bodies or eventually ATP are only the indirect cause for such a state of mental alert - basically it is your body by the help of hormones, such as adrenalin warning about a danger and to get out of that state of ketosis...
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
          Well, I do not deny the negative efect on the appetite in ketosis, but going around with high adrenalin levels over years are very taxing on an organism - also the human body. But maybe I am wrong, that this mental clarity comes from something else, but then someone better put evidence on the table, because so far I have not seen much. Ketone bodies or eventually ATP are only the indirect cause for such a state of mental alert - basically it is your body by the help of hormones, such as adrenalin warning about a danger and to get out of that state of ketosis...
          I'll take the bait. You obviously don't understand the krebs cycle and what ATP is/does, but what's this claim about ketosis leading to higher levels of adrenalin? Do you have a source or citation?
          The Champagne of Beards

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            Well, I do not deny the negative efect on the appetite in ketosis, but going around with high adrenalin levels over years are very taxing on an organism - also the human body. But maybe I am wrong, that this mental clarity comes from something else, but then someone better put evidence on the table, because so far I have not seen much. Ketone bodies or eventually ATP are only the indirect cause for such a state of mental alert - basically it is your body by the help of hormones, such as adrenalin warning about a danger and to get out of that state of ketosis...
            Yeah, I deleted that comment so I wouldn't get sucked back into these discussions . Since you saw it before hand I guess I'm stuck. I don't think you can quantify things like "mental clarity" in a clinical trial, but there is ample evidence of ketosis being good for neurological disorders. I don't know if trials have been run on healthy peoples ability to problem solve in a ketotic state vs. not. If there has been that could be an interesting read. I'm with RM on wondering if there is significant evidence of "high adrenalin levels".... at least in an isocaloric trial of ketotic vs non ketotic individuals is there a significant difference in those levels. Again I've not looked this up. Don't feel like researching much tonight .

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
              Yeah, I deleted that comment so I wouldn't get sucked back into these discussions . Since you saw it before hand I guess I'm stuck. I don't think you can quantify things like "mental clarity" in a clinical trial, but there is ample evidence of ketosis being good for neurological disorders. I don't know if trials have been run on healthy peoples ability to problem solve in a ketotic state vs. not. If there has been that could be an interesting read. I'm with RM on wondering if there is significant evidence of "high adrenalin levels".... at least in an isocaloric trial of ketotic vs non ketotic individuals is there a significant difference in those levels. Again I've not looked this up. Don't feel like researching much tonight .
              OK, I am not unknown by ketosis and the state of "mental clarity" - but I interpret it as an state of alertness and an instrument to find some appropriate food and to get out of the ketosis and to let the body calm down and get sluggish for a while! Personally I get in and out of ketosis all the time though, but I don't see any reason to stay there for years either. But all honor to voluntary human guinea pigs testing out long term ketonic eating though, we can certainly learn something whatever results...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

              Comment


              • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                I'll take the bait. You obviously don't understand the krebs cycle and what ATP is/does, but what's this claim about ketosis leading to higher levels of adrenalin? Do you have a source or citation?
                Adrenalin is a counterregulatory hormone to lower insulin levels, and the state of "mental alertness" in ketosis seem to me to be a lighter "adrenaline buzz", and I am sure that somebody can look this up for verification. And if you know why ATP should be relevant to this, just put it on the table instead of playing around...
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                  Adrenalin is a counterregulatory hormone to lower insulin levels, and the state of "mental alertness" in ketosis seem to me to be a lighter "adrenaline buzz", and I am sure that somebody can look this up for verification. And if you know why ATP should be relevant to this, just put it on the table instead of playing around...
                  I've never heard of this association between adrenalin secretion and ketosis. I'd love you to cite the source of your claims, rather than tell me to go google it myself, since it's certainly not common knowledge.

                  ATP matters because every single cell in our bodies is fueled by it and by it alone.
                  The Champagne of Beards

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                    I've never heard of this association between adrenalin secretion and ketosis. I'd love you to cite the source of your claims, rather than tell me to go google it myself, since it's certainly not common knowledge.
                    Well, I know the effect of a adrenaline kick on myself, and I know the state of ketosis, and I feel very much the similarities of "mental alertness", so I am pretty sure that elevated levels of adrenalin and noradrenaline are involved in ketosis. Should I then go to pubmed and find some study for you to prove my point? Not at all, just take it or leave it, I don't care wether you or other ignorant persons believes it or not...


                    Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                    ATP matters because every single cell in our bodies is fueled by it and by it alone.
                    But ATP is an intracellular breakdown product used for energy production, it's not a "fuel". The body uses fat, carbs or protein for fuel, ATP is a derivate from those. And what relevans does ATP have for what we are discussing about the state of "alertness" in ketosis?
                    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                    - Schopenhauer

                    Comment


                    • If I have to pick an ignorant/lazy person in this debate, it would be the one making spelling mistakes.
                      Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                      Griff's cholesterol primer
                      5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                      Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                      TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                      bloodorchid is always right

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                        Either that or beta-hydroxybutyrate being turned into pyruvate yields more ATP via the krebs cycle than glucose. Don't let the facts get in the way of your anti-Primal ideology though. At least the lime in your diet coke is organic...
                        Hehehehe.........
                        Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                        I'll take the bait. You obviously don't understand the krebs cycle and what ATP is/does, but what's this claim about ketosis leading to higher levels of adrenalin? Do you have a source or citation?
                        Other than Ray Peat please.
                        Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                        I've never heard of this association between adrenalin secretion and ketosis. I'd love you to cite the source of your claims, rather than tell me to go google it myself, since it's certainly not common knowledge.
                        ATP matters because every single cell in our bodies is fueled by it and by it alone.
                        Don't confuse him with the facts, RM.
                        Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                        Well, I know the effect of a adrenaline kick on myself, and I know the state of ketosis, and I feel very much the similarities of "mental alertness", so I am pretty sure that elevated levels of adrenalin and noradrenaline are involved in ketosis.
                        Just because you are a diet soda junkie, that makes you the expert on ketosis all of a sudden? Riiiight.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          I've never heard of this association between adrenalin secretion and ketosis. I'd love you to cite the source of your claims, rather than tell me to go google it myself, since it's certainly not common knowledge.
                          I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but this struck me as odd since I did think this was common knowledge. It's even on the wikipedia page if you search fatty acid metabolism:

                          "However, when hormones such as epinephrine (also known as adrenaline) or glucagon are secreted in response to low levels of glucose, this triggers an intracellular secondary messenger cascades that phosphorylates hormone-sensitive lipase to break triglycerides into glycerol and free fatty acids for use in metabolism, a process known as lipolysis."

                          Fatty acid metabolism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


                          "The following hormones induce lipolysis: epinephrine, norepinephrine, ghrelin, growth hormone, testosterone, and cortisol."

                          Lipolysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                            I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but this struck me as odd since I did think this was common knowledge. It's even on the wikipedia page if you search fatty acid metabolism:
                            I wasn't arguing the fact, just asking Gorbag for a citation.

                            Gorbag or BestBetter: What amount of adrenaline is actually necessary for the conversion of protein to glucose? (Advance apologies if that's also common knowledge). And for what period of time after beginning a ketogenic regime do dieters exhibit increased serum adrenaline?
                            The Champagne of Beards

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                              I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but this struck me as odd since I did think this was common knowledge. It's even on the wikipedia page if you search fatty acid metabolism:

                              "However, when hormones such as epinephrine (also known as adrenaline) or glucagon are secreted in response to low levels of glucose, this triggers an intracellular secondary messenger cascades that phosphorylates hormone-sensitive lipase to break triglycerides into glycerol and free fatty acids for use in metabolism, a process known as lipolysis."

                              Fatty acid metabolism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


                              "The following hormones induce lipolysis: epinephrine, norepinephrine, ghrelin, growth hormone, testosterone, and cortisol."

                              Lipolysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                              Which is why we both love and hate good ole Wikipedia. Its a very general entry without any consideration of context. Its an entry about lypolosis in general (which everyone does rely on almost exclusively as they sleep)....guess sleep raises adrenaline! Really some people will have raised adrenaline and some won't. It will depend on other factors such as eating at caloric maintenance or surplus vs eating to lose weight, adaptation to the state of ketosis, and of course biochemical individuality and previous health issues. Tthere is no way that you can say "ketosis raises adrenaline" as a rule unless you are talking about a specific individual that you have tested... then you can say "ketosis has raised adrenaline for you under these particular circumstances".
                              Last edited by Neckhammer; 02-25-2013, 09:07 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                                Just because you are a diet soda junkie, that makes you the expert on ketosis all of a sudden? Riiiight.
                                LOL, because I don't buy the unintelligible hysteria about aspartame, then I am disqualified to have an opinion about ketosis, a physiological state that I visit frequently?
                                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                                - Schopenhauer

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