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Thoughts on high fat and 'high carb'

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  • #31
    Originally posted by AngryKiwi47 View Post
    I want you to keep your carbs below 20g daily and your protein low - or whatever it takes to to not spike your insulin - and eat a pound of butter, or drink a pint of olive oil, daily.

    According to you, you won't gain weight nor fat. Let me know how that goes.
    Think it's easier to eat 3,240 kCal of butter or 3,240 kCal of white bread in a day?

    Do you think your metabolism/hunger signaling pathways don't respond any differently in either of those cases? Really?
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      Think it's easier to eat 3,240 kCal of butter or 3,240 kCal of white bread in a day?
      ?
      I'd say both would be fairly difficult - though the butter may be easier, since you could melt and drink it. Maybe in a coffee, for example. Bread has maybe 90calories a slice - I would say good luck getting 3240 calories from white bread alone; that would equate to more than a whole loaf. Possibly two.
      In honesty, the easiest way to get 3240kcal would be by having here together. Butter and bread together.

      Not sure where bread came from, though. I wouldn't suggest anyone eat bread. Thought this was about carbs in general.

      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      Do you think your metabolism/hunger signaling pathways don't respond any differently in either of those cases? Really?
      Did I say that? Is that even in context with the "insulin = weight gain" comment I responded to?

      Of course hunger signals come differently. 3240kcal of white potatoes would be a hell of a lot harder to get down my throat than 3240kcal of butter. Would keep me full for longer, too.
      Dark chocolate and coffee, running through my veins...

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      • #33
        OK, to all that those people thinking that insulin is what really makes you store fat, just make sure to drown all your food in fat then to get down the insulin response and see what happens! The insulin reponse is IRRELEVANT, and all ingested fat that you don't burn throughout the day will be stored as FAT in your body - true story folks...
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

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        • #34
          Originally posted by AngryKiwi47 View Post
          I'd say both would be fairly difficult - though the butter may be easier, since you could melt and drink it. Maybe in a coffee, for example.
          You think you could drink a coffee with an entire pound of butter in it? When do you think you'd be hungry again?

          Originally posted by AngryKiwi47
          Bread has maybe 90calories a slice - I would say good luck getting 3240 calories from white bread alone; that would equate to more than a whole loaf. Possibly two.
          I bet there are posters on here who've eaten an entire loaf of bread in a day. I've come close in the distant past. I wonder how many have eaten 4 sticks of butter in a single day.

          Originally posted by AngryKiwi47
          In honesty, the easiest way to get 3240kcal would be by having here together. Butter and bread together.
          But why? A calorie's a calorie, isn't it? Why should it be easier or harder to overeat one source or combination of calories than another?

          Originally posted by AngryKiwi47
          Not sure where bread came from, though. I wouldn't suggest anyone eat bread. Thought this was about carbs in general.
          Okay. Answer the question for apples then. Or bananas. Or white rice. It was just an example.

          Originally posted by AngryKiwi47
          Did I say that? Is that even in context with the "insulin = weight gain" comment I responded to?
          The "Go drink a pint of olive oil" argument appears to ignore the following:

          Originally posted by AngryKiwi47
          Of course hunger signals come differently.
          Right.

          Originally posted by AngryKiwi47
          3240kcal of white potatoes would be a hell of a lot harder to get down my throat than 3240kcal of butter. Would keep me full for longer, too.
          I'm actually not so sure the potatoes would keep you full longer, but you're probably right about them being EVEN HARDER to down than the butter.

          Maybe I misunderstood your original argument. My point was that debating whether an isocaloric amount of one macronutrient vs. another will result in more fat storage completely ignores the hormonal effects of the food choices on both metabolism and satiety.

          As far as I know, there's no such thing as a 0 insulin diet in a person with a functioning pancreas. Even if your body has to metabolize its own tissue for protein and glucose, there will be a resulting secretion of the necessary amount of insulin, which is where I think your argument most immediately falls apart.
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • #35
            I would never say caloric intake is irrelevant, but my personal experience has been that I can lose weight eating high fat/high protein (eat when hungry, stop when full) and I cannot lose weight when I eat high carb, even when I watch my calories. Two doctors have told me that I have a metabolic type that is extremely sensitive to carbs. I have to keep my carb count down in order to lose weight. Does that mean everyone does? No. But it's over-simplifying to say it's strictly calories in/calories out for everyone. If that were so, every conventional diet out there would work- for everyone.
            High Weight: 225
            Weight at start of Primal: 189
            Current Weight: 174
            Goal Weight: 130

            Primal Start Date: 11/26/2012

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
              OK, to all that those people thinking that insulin is what really makes you store fat, just make sure to drown all your food in fat then to get down the insulin response and see what happens! The insulin reponse is IRRELEVANT, and all ingested fat that you don't burn throughout the day will be stored as FAT in your body - true story folks...
              What happened to me when I started drowning all my food in fat was that I got hungry far less often. Had more energy to burn. No longer suffered the mid- or late-day slumps that required food and/or energy drinks to get through. My lean mass went up, body fat went down. I became an amateur MMA champion at a weight I hadn't been since 11th grade. Got more attention from the ladies. Became less prone to sunburns. Oh yeah, increased mental focus. Less irritability. More regular bathroom habits.

              Sorry, what was your point, exactly?
              The Champagne of Beards

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              • #37
                Bloody hell. Very hard to quote on an IPad. CBF.

                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                You think you could drink a coffee with an entire pound of butter in it? When do you think you'd be hungry again?


                I bet there are posters on here who've eaten an entire loaf of bread in a day. I've come close in the distant past. I wonder how many have eaten 4 sticks of butter in a single day.


                But why? A calorie's a calorie, isn't it? Why should it be easier or harder to overeat one source or combination of calories than another?



                Okay. Answer the question for apples then. Or bananas. Or white rice. It was just an example.



                The "Go drink a pint of olive oil" argument appears to ignore the following:



                Right.



                I'm actually not so sure the potatoes would keep you full longer, but you're probably right about them being EVEN HARDER to down than the butter.

                Maybe I misunderstood your original argument. My point was that debating whether an isocaloric amount of one macronutrient vs. another will result in more fat storage completely ignores the hormonal effects of the food choices on both metabolism and satiety.

                As far as I know, there's no such thing as a 0 insulin diet in a person with a functioning pancreas. Even if your body has to metabolize its own tissue for protein and glucose, there will be a resulting secretion of the necessary amount of insulin, which is where I think your argument most immediately falls apart.
                The only "argument" I made was that insulin is not the only cause of weight gain. A caloric surplus is. I don't see how in any case that argument "fell apart". The person I responded to suggested otherwise, so I suggested that - regardless of hunger, satiety coming from the food or any other factors as such - to keep their insulin low and eat a surplus of pure fat calories to see whether or not they would gain weight.

                I wasn't aware in any case that I was responding to anything to do with hunger or satiety. I responded to "insulin is the only thing that stores fat in fat cells". Of course, if someone overeats on butter or bread (or butter and bread), they will gain weight. If bread - or carbs in general - makes it easier for them to overeat, then more power to them for ruling them out. They've made a very wise decision to control their eating habits. But to say that weight gain is caused only by insulin and you can gorge yourself on unlimited fat? No. Not likely.
                Dark chocolate and coffee, running through my veins...

                Fitocracy Workout Tracker:
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                MFP Food Diary:
                http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary/Shadowknight137
                (Date is New Zealand Time UTC+ 12hours)

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  What happened to me when I started drowning all my food in fat was that I got hungry far less often. Had more energy to burn. No longer suffered the mid- or late-day slumps that required food and/or energy drinks to get through. My lean mass went up, body fat went down. I became an amateur MMA champion at a weight I hadn't been since 11th grade. Got more attention from the ladies. Became less prone to sunburns. Oh yeah, increased mental focus. Less irritability. More regular bathroom habits.

                  Sorry, what was your point, exactly?
                  Did your penis increase 4 inches too?
                  Make America Great Again

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                    What happened to me when I started drowning all my food in fat was that I got hungry far less often. Had more energy to burn. No longer suffered the mid- or late-day slumps that required food and/or energy drinks to get through. My lean mass went up, body fat went down. I became an amateur MMA champion at a weight I hadn't been since 11th grade. Got more attention from the ladies. Became less prone to sunburns. Oh yeah, increased mental focus. Less irritability. More regular bathroom habits.

                    Sorry, what was your point, exactly?
                    You are now moving the goal posts - I know pretty well that some people start to eat less total calories on a low carb and high fat diet - so if that's your point I don't disagree at all, but that's not the issue discussed here...
                    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                    - Schopenhauer

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                      Did your penis increase 4 inches too?
                      No, that would have been the first thing on the list and I wouldn't have cared about the rest.

                      Originally posted by Gorbag
                      You are now moving the goal posts - I know pretty well that some people start to eat less total calories on a low carb and high fat diet - so if that's your point I don't disagree at all, but that's not the issue discussed here...
                      I'm not moving the goal posts at all. The question is whether fats and carbs together result in weight gain. There's a reason bodybuilders and powerlifters trying to bulk include lots of carbohydrates in their diets. Makes it easier to overeat.
                      The Champagne of Beards

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                      • #41
                        It's too many calories for most. The body needs carbs, not fat.

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