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  • #61
    Originally posted by AngryKiwi47 View Post
    Drinking vs eating calories is irrelevant. It's just more likely you'll feel more sated on food vs drinks.
    So, not irrelevant.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

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    • #62
      Ayla, I think that there are a lot of things about serious obesity that we just don't understand. Does obesity cause diabetes, or does a tendency to diabetes cause obesity, which then gets the disease to appear? What is the difference in levels of obesity? IOW do we really treat someone who is 30% overweight the same as someone who is 100% overweight? How about the genetic component - how do we help people with over 38 genes that trigger obesity?

      How do we help people who were allowed to get fat when they were children? Children who are overfed can actually have an increased number of fat cells, whereas once we're adults, the number is fixed and the size changes. So, barring liposuction, how do we help people who were fed as children to the point that they have more fat cells than is healthy? Or is lipsuction the answer for them?

      Since the medical community is only going to pump us full of drugs and tell us to eat low fat high grain diets, we're on our own. I guess the only answer is to keep experimenting on ourselves until we find the answer for each of us. n=1

      You have stored energy (I've got a bunch too, just a lot less than last year). That's what adipose tissue is. Many people, for various reasons, do medically supervised water fasts lasting as long as 30 days and I never see headlines about them dying. Or any of them saying that because they went into starvation mode, they became chronically overweight.
      "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

      B*tch-lite

      Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
        Eating more will probably RAISE insulin levels slightly at first because your body has to get used to the new way of eating all over again. This may not be a noticeable increase however, if you already have serious issues. And once it adjusts to the new way of eating and recognizes it as the norm, insulin levels may calm down a bit.

        Will it solve all of your metabolic issues? NO.

        Will it help? YES.
        So what will else do I need to do to solve them? Take the meds? I guess it could hurt as it is a drug, and some people get GI upsets from it. Dr couldn't explain any other potential side affects. Maybe the benefit will outweigh the risk. But could I cause more issues from it?

        Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
        What I meant was that it's really easy to overeat liquid calories.

        In your example, I guess your BP coffee replaces your meal. But where's the quality protein?

        Forget calories. Or rather, focus on eating foods that will provide you with the *nutrition* you need in the form of essential vitamins etc.
        Sorry I see what you mean yes. No protein in it. So eating a meal with protein makes more sense.

        Originally posted by AngryKiwi47 View Post
        Drinking vs eating calories is irrelevant. It's just more likely you'll feel more sated on food vs drinks. People struggling to gain weight are recommended to drink calories between meals to up them.
        As for you, I suggest keeping the BP coffee AND eating breakfast. Why? Because it's been established you're not getting enough cals in as is.

        Have you signed back into MFP yet?
        No I have not, I am still trying to work out what to set calorie goals at. And plus I already said this is dangerous territory for me. There has to be another way.
        Like eating a meal either with or without a BP coffee. My calories should increase if I am eating 3 meals of protein, and lots of veg with some fat shouldn't it?

        And even if I did count, who's formula do I believe?

        That amount of calories you suggest, just seems like a huge amount, and I don't know how I would lose weight on it, and I cannot gain more. I guess its going to be one step at a time, as I don't think suddenly stuffing in an extra 1000 cal a day isn't going to be easy. Since I am not hungry for long periods now, how would eating more make me more hungry?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
          So, not irrelevant.
          Correct. :P
          Dark chocolate and coffee, running through my veins...

          Fitocracy Workout Tracker:
          https://www.fitocracy.com/profile/Shadowknight137/?feed
          MFP Food Diary:
          http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary/Shadowknight137
          (Date is New Zealand Time UTC+ 12hours)

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
            Yeah but whos advice do I listen to about the amount of calories and macro breakdown?

            Surely counting calories doesn't have to be the answer.
            You might want to count on the back-end, like we do.

            Essentially, this is just to check to make sure that your basic needs are getting met. The very first layer of need that needs to get met is your protein need. And, it's nice because it's constant.

            So, there are lots of formulas for determining how much protein to get. I use 1 g per lb lean body weight. This means taking your body fat percentage (estimated, of course) and multiply your weight by that percentage. Subtract this from your total body weight. That gives you the lean body mass, and use that number to determine the grams of protein.

            For me, it's 18% at 128, so it's 128 - (128 x .18) = 105 g protein.

            Then, do between 80-100g carbs per day would probably work well for you. Then the rest is fat.

            If you're doing 105 g protein and 100 g carbohydrate, that's 820 calories there. If you then try to get up to 1200 calories (lets just say, as a random number), then it's 380 calories from fat -- just 42 grams of fat.

            And, look at the percentages: 105 p is 420 calories and is 35% of 1200 calories. 100 g carbohydrate is 400 calories and is 30% carbohydrate. This means that 42 grams of fat is 380 calories is just under 35% of 1200 calories.

            This fits within Perfect Health Diet styling anyway.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Zach View Post
              Ayla, you know all these answers all ready because you have asked them repeatedly. You know what to do, yet you come here every night and confuse yourself even more. This thread is too long for me to highlight all the contradictions and answered questions you keep posting and honestly i dont care to explain myself because all you have ever done is ridicule me and shrug off any information I have ever given you. Did you even read the article i posted at the beginning or did you skip it because some idiot said it was high carb propaganda?

              And yes, i think the best thing you could do right now is unplug your computer and try to forget everything you think you know about nutrition.

              Heres my last advice. Eat real food, dont restrict a food because of its nutrient content, restrict it if it has chemicals you cant pronounce. Dont eat half your calories in liquid fat because some loon on a forum says it works for them. Eat like you live in the 19th century and you had never read a word on nutrition. If you cant grow it, kill it, pick it, milk it, dont eat it.
              Do you truly think I am trying to fight with you still?
              No I am not, I truly don't understand or I would not be asking. So what if you think I am dumb. I am asking the questions I am asking because I am trying to figure it out.

              I do eat real food, that is the thing. I don't eat huge amounts of starchy carbs as they don't make me feel good.
              I know dropping the BP coffee will help and I am happy to do so.

              Can you just answer what I specifically asked you. In plain english. That article you send me is huge, and nope I don't understand it, and I am sorry for that.

              Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
              Ayla, I think that there are a lot of things about serious obesity that we just don't understand. Does obesity cause diabetes, or does a tendency to diabetes cause obesity, which then gets the disease to appear? What is the difference in levels of obesity? IOW do we really treat someone who is 30% overweight the same as someone who is 100% overweight? How about the genetic component - how do we help people with over 38 genes that trigger obesity?

              How do we help people who were allowed to get fat when they were children? Children who are overfed can actually have an increased number of fat cells, whereas once we're adults, the number is fixed and the size changes. So, barring liposuction, how do we help people who were fed as children to the point that they have more fat cells than is healthy? Or is lipsuction the answer for them?

              Since the medical community is only going to pump us full of drugs and tell us to eat low fat high grain diets, we're on our own. I guess the only answer is to keep experimenting on ourselves until we find the answer for each of us. n=1

              You have stored energy (I've got a bunch too, just a lot less than last year). That's what adipose tissue is. Many people, for various reasons, do medically supervised water fasts lasting as long as 30 days and I never see headlines about them dying. Or any of them saying that because they went into starvation mode, they became chronically overweight.
              Thanks Joanie, you confirmed some things I wondered.

              As for being fat as a kid, I don't know if it makes a difference, but never got fat till I was 18.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                You might want to count on the back-end, like we do.

                Essentially, this is just to check to make sure that your basic needs are getting met. The very first layer of need that needs to get met is your protein need. And, it's nice because it's constant.

                So, there are lots of formulas for determining how much protein to get. I use 1 g per lb lean body weight. This means taking your body fat percentage (estimated, of course) and multiply your weight by that percentage. Subtract this from your total body weight. That gives you the lean body mass, and use that number to determine the grams of protein.

                For me, it's 18% at 128, so it's 128 - (128 x .18) = 105 g protein.

                Then, do between 80-100g carbs per day would probably work well for you. Then the rest is fat.

                If you're doing 105 g protein and 100 g carbohydrate, that's 820 calories there. If you then try to get up to 1200 calories (lets just say, as a random number), then it's 380 calories from fat -- just 42 grams of fat.

                And, look at the percentages: 105 p is 420 calories and is 35% of 1200 calories. 100 g carbohydrate is 400 calories and is 30% carbohydrate. This means that 42 grams of fat is 380 calories is just under 35% of 1200 calories.

                This fits within Perfect Health Diet styling anyway.
                But when I have counted I have ended up around 1200 calories anyway. What I am eating hasn't changed since I was counting, but apparently this is starvation mode for me.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Ayla- Stressing yourself out about this is really not going to help.

                  Did you know that there is a difference between pathological insulin resistance caused by a SAD diet and physiological insulin resistance caused by lc or vlc diets?

                  Does your doc know the difference? If your fasting blood glucose was high, it may mean that you simply needed to eat breakfast.

                  Read this: Does Eating a Low Carb Diet Cause Insulin Resistance? | Mark&#039;s Daily Apple
                  Ancestral Nutrition Coaching
                  Pregnancy Nutrition Coaching
                  Primal Pregnancy Nutrition Article

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                    Zach and angry kiwi, how does your theory of starvation mode relate to extremely high insulin?

                    The Dr says its why weight loss has been harder, but you are saying I am not eating enough.

                    Can you see why I am confused? It has to be one answer surely? It can't be everything.

                    OK I do know I need to eat more, and I think lowering my fats will do that, and I am fine with doing that. But if I am eating more, will it have anything to do with bringing the insulin level down? Or do I truly need this drug the Dr wants me to take?

                    I need to understand this 100%
                    Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                    Please explain to me how in such a short amount of time.
                    I need to understand this. How does fat come into it?

                    Please don't just post links, I need a simple explanation I can understand.
                    Zach? I don't want to fight with anyone OK. But id like you to give me an easy to understand explanation for what you said.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post

                      No I have not, I am still trying to work out what to set calorie goals at. And plus I already said this is dangerous territory for me. There has to be another way.
                      Like eating a meal either with or without a BP coffee. My calories should increase if I am eating 3 meals of protein, and lots of veg with some fat shouldn't it?

                      And even if I did count, who's formula do I believe?

                      That amount of calories you suggest, just seems like a huge amount, and I don't know how I would lose weight on it, and I cannot gain more. I guess its going to be one step at a time, as I don't think suddenly stuffing in an extra 1000 cal a day isn't going to be easy. Since I am not hungry for long periods now, how would eating more make me more hungry?
                      The amount of calories I suggested will make you lose weight because it's below your TDEE. Seriously. I kid you not, it may seem like a lot, but that's just because you're heavier and thus, burn more calories simply by existing.

                      Your calorie should only increase IF YOU MAKE THEM. Just eating three meals may not boost your calories enough - it might, but I doubt it'll reach the number we came to before.
                      It may not be easy - to add the extra kcals and/because of the mentality you may have around this - but just... Well, eat. Eggs with cheese, bacon and veggies. Sweet potato coated in butter alongside a grassfed steak. Real food, more of it. Caloric density vs volume - if you're struggling to get it down, go for density.
                      Hell, I have a killer "Primal Nachos" recipe. Don't be afraid to eat a dessert, either - boost the protein with some yoghurt or cottage cheese with berries.

                      It may take awhile, but you will come to enjoy it. Think about it - you will be will to eat more, AND your weight loss will pick up. As you lose weight, the cals get lowered down. It all balances out.

                      A the very least, try what I suggested for a couple of weeks.
                      Dark chocolate and coffee, running through my veins...

                      Fitocracy Workout Tracker:
                      https://www.fitocracy.com/profile/Shadowknight137/?feed
                      MFP Food Diary:
                      http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary/Shadowknight137
                      (Date is New Zealand Time UTC+ 12hours)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by AngryKiwi47 View Post
                        Hell, I have a killer "Primal Nachos" recipe. D
                        share please.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
                          Ayla- Stressing yourself out about this is really not going to help.

                          Did you know that there is a difference between pathological insulin resistance caused by a SAD diet and physiological insulin resistance caused by lc or vlc diets?

                          Does your doc know the difference? If your fasting blood glucose was high, it may mean that you simply needed to eat breakfast.

                          Read this: Does Eating a Low Carb Diet Cause Insulin Resistance? | Mark's Daily Apple
                          Oh that is the same article I linked to before. I will look at what I would need to eat to increase carbs to 100 g a day, and go from there. Too many starchy carbs make me feel not so great. But maybe I have to suffer that to fix something else?
                          No I don't think he does.
                          I only just learned of this myself, will read the article later, as I have to go to get my son from school shortly.
                          But it does make sense what I have read of it already.

                          My fasting glucose was slightly out of the normal range, but the avg over 3 months was in the normal range, this he could not explain. But my insulin.
                          Normal fasting >10, and after eating it can be up to 30, mine was 150 the first test, and because I asked if it was a mistake since it was so high, he repeated it, and it was 127
                          Last edited by Ayla2010; 02-14-2013, 08:20 PM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by AngryKiwi47 View Post
                            The amount of calories I suggested will make you lose weight because it's below your TDEE. Seriously. I kid you not, it may seem like a lot, but that's just because you're heavier and thus, burn more calories simply by existing.

                            Your calorie should only increase IF YOU MAKE THEM. Just eating three meals may not boost your calories enough - it might, but I doubt it'll reach the number we came to before.
                            It may not be easy - to add the extra kcals and/because of the mentality you may have around this - but just... Well, eat. Eggs with cheese, bacon and veggies. Sweet potato coated in butter alongside a grassfed steak. Real food, more of it. Caloric density vs volume - if you're struggling to get it down, go for density.
                            Hell, I have a killer "Primal Nachos" recipe. Don't be afraid to eat a dessert, either - boost the protein with some yoghurt or cottage cheese with berries.

                            It may take awhile, but you will come to enjoy it. Think about it - you will be will to eat more, AND your weight loss will pick up. As you lose weight, the cals get lowered down. It all balances out.

                            A the very least, try what I suggested for a couple of weeks.
                            I don't primalise recipes, that is also a recipe for over eating for me. Same reason dessert rarely happens in our house.
                            I can def try to eat more real foods.

                            I can do one thing at a time, slowly.
                            I am not saying I will try to get to the levels you suggest, I will see how I go. As I said, I cannot gain any more weight. I am morbidly obese, not just obese.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Addressing just this one part of the question:

                              Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                              Also if starvation mode is true, how do you explain anorexics, and bulimics getting extremely thin? ... Not to mention they would actually be feeling hunger, but ignoring it. If I had more hunger I would not ignore it.

                              According to this study Role of the evolutionarily conserved starvati... [Mol Psychiatry. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI This lack of hunger is part of the reason behind Anorexia Nervosa (AN).

                              It says:
                              "......AN is primarily a metabolic disorder caused by defective regulation of the starvation response, which leads to ambivalence towards food, decreased food consumption and characteristic psychopathology."
                              "We will .... describe the central role of insulin .. (and related hormones)... signaling in this response."
                              "We will also discuss how initial bouts of caloric restriction may alter the production of neurotransmitters that regulate appetite and food-seeking behavior and thus, set in motion a vicious cycle."

                              So what they are saying is that due to the starvation response, AN sufferers do not feel normal hunger. The concern is that as you have been restricting calories for a fair while, you have triggered the same response as the AN suffers, hence you are genuinely not hungry whilst eating a calorie restricted diet. You want to get out of that part of the vicious cycle, and the suggestion is that you eat maintenance calories for a while until the starvation response goes away and normal hunger response kicks back in.

                              As to why they lose weight and you don't ? I'll be curious to see the answer.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Ayla, have you considered herbs and spices to help with insulin resistance? They're no magic bullet, but they can be a part of a natural, diet-based solution for sure. Just a few examples:

                                Green Tea, Black Tea & Oolong Tea Increase Insulin Activity by More than 1500%

                                Anti-inflammatory effects of yerba maté ... [Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

                                Tea Shows Promise as Natural Diabetes Treatment | Peak Health Advocate

                                Cinnamon improves glucose and lipids of people... [Diabetes Care. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

                                Dr. Joseph Mercola: Cinnamon for Diabetes? A Half Teaspoon A Day Could Help Control Cholesterol

                                Cinnamon for Diabetes? - Ask Dr. Weil
                                "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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