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  • Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
    Gorbag, have you read Taubes' opinion on CICO? It does a very good job of explaining why many people continue to gain weight on low calorie diets. Energy partitioning is the gist of his explanation. When on a high-carb diet that constantly stimulates insulin, the insulin will transport the dietary carb and fat into your fat and muscle cells, often disproportionately depending on your genetic predisposition. If you are more geared to depositing this fat and carb (which will be converted into free fatty acids) in your fat cells, whilst your muscles becoming insulin resistant, you will begin to feel lethargic due to your brain urging you to expend less energy since all the fatty acids are being stored away and not able to be extracted for energy.

    Even if you eat 1500 cals/day, yet a large majority is coming from carbohydrates, you are essentially locking all the stored fat away due to a constant insulin drip from your pancreas. The only energy you are getting is from the transient source of carbohydrates in your diet. Again, you will become lethargic because your body is telling you that there is no available energy, so you must shut down and be sedentary. This is why it is so hard to get overweight and obese people to work out. Not because they are lazy, but because their brain is literally telling them to save their energy because it does not think it has any. Another great biochemical explanation on this can be found in Dr. Cate Shanahan's book, Deep Nutrition.

    Taubes explains obesity as a hormonal imbalance. The reason we grow fat is not because we eat a lot, we eat a lot because we grow fat, just as a child does not grow taller because he eats, he eats because he grows taller. It's a hormonal phenomena, not a caloric problem.
    Holy shit, lol.

    So how do you explain the billions of extremely lean people eating a diet where 60%~ of their calories come from carbs? How do you explain fruitarians eating 80%+ from sugar and being stick people? Hell i am steadily losing fat while eating almost 70% carbs and a lot of calories.

    Carbs drives insulin drives fat is just plain wrong and Toubes is a complete moron if that is indeed what he still believes.
    Last edited by Zach; 02-22-2013, 08:55 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Zach View Post
      Holy shit, lol.

      So how do you explain the millions of extremely lean people eating a diet where 60%~ of their calories come from carbs? How do you explain fruitarians eating 80%+ from sugar and being stick people? Hell i am steadily losing fat while eating almost 70% carbs and a lot of calories.

      Carbs drives insulin drives fat is just plain wrong and Toubes is a complete moron if that is indeed what he still believes.
      Oh and btw, almost anyone gaining weight on a low calorie diet will be on a low carb diet also.

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      • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
        It is true to a certain degree that adipose storage creates another hormonal environment, but make no mistake about that it is still a calorie overload that makes you gain weight, and that insulin pulses are irrelevant to that. It doesn't matter that the body stores fat and glycogen by insulin, it does that most of the time after eating, but it also oxidates free fatty acids and glucose from the blood all the time, and there are no on/off switches into this, but the relative oxidation is related to ACTIVITY, and when doing intense work you will oxidate more glucose and less fatty acids, and when being inactive or moderate active the body will oxidate free fatty acids from dietary fat and from stored bodyfat. This basically work the same for an obese insulin resistant person and a lean person, the body burn fuel depending on level of activity, thats what human physiology 101 states.

        It is impossible and against the fundamental laws of nature to gain weight by eating less than the body needs to maintain its weight, insulin or not, the only thing that count summa summarum is the energy balance, the body would die immediatly if it don't get enough energy to maintain it's fundamental processes within the cells, so it must take energy from some where, either from it's own depots of fat or glycogen, or from ingested food. So forget about theories if they indirectly say that you can gain weight out of thin air - because this is basically the logical consequenses of implying that the body can store fat when in a enrgy balance or even in a deficit - it's absurd and beyond retarded even insinuating the possibility of that(!)

        So to repeat myself; you can only gain weight by eating MORE than the body need for maintaing it's weight and vice versa you can only lose weight by eating LESS than the body need to maintain it's weight, and there are no chance in hell to bypass that simple principle - I would have much less problems in believing in miracles, magic and walking over water etc. than abandoning that fundamental fact...
        What the hell are you blathering about?

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        • Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
          Hi Ayla, any update on meeting with a naturopath? I'm curious what herbs and spices they recommended to you for insulin sensitivity.

          I know there are a lot of good options out there, I'm just curious what the experts consider the best of the best.
          I have not yet done so. I am going to give it another month or so and then re-look at things. The scales are moving again and that is what most needs to happen right now.

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          • Originally posted by Zach View Post
            What the hell are you blathering about?
            If you have something intelligible to say, just say it, no reason to be modest here...
            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

            - Schopenhauer

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            • Originally posted by Zach View Post
              Holy shit, lol.

              So how do you explain the billions of extremely lean people eating a diet where 60%~ of their calories come from carbs? How do you explain fruitarians eating 80%+ from sugar and being stick people? Hell i am steadily losing fat while eating almost 70% carbs and a lot of calories.

              Carbs drives insulin drives fat is just plain wrong and Toubes is a complete moron if that is indeed what he still believes.
              Yup. Insulin regulates circulating fatty acids(nefa, the fat used for energy) and blood glucose levels. It has no direct effect on fat mass, that's leptin. And it's certainly not as simple as carb = insulin = fat gain.

              Taubes has a clear agenda, it's best to ignore everything he says.
              Make America Great Again

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              • CICO at it's most basic level is true, if you starve someone, yes they will lose weight, then die.
                In normal scenarios under calorie restriction, the body in some cases does choose to downregulate metabolism before it will utilize fat stores and this is not a healthy position, so under those conditions CICO rule fails.

                As for the carbohydrate question, fruitarians are probably a bad example, but nevertheless, there are groups of individuals who do well on a carb dominant diet, so there is much more to the world of healthy diet than just high fat low carb.
                "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                • Originally posted by Ayla2010 View Post
                  I have not yet done so. I am going to give it another month or so and then re-look at things. The scales are moving again and that is what most needs to happen right now.
                  I agree with you there, but I still think you could benefit regardless. Couldn't hurt anyway.
                  "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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                  • Originally posted by Omni View Post
                    CICO at it's most basic level is true, if you starve someone, yes they will lose weight, then die.
                    In normal scenarios under calorie restriction, the body in some cases does choose to downregulate metabolism before it will utilize fat stores and this is not a healthy position, so under those conditions CICO rule fails.
                    A person will not starve without food before he have lost so much bodyfat that the body can't mobilize enough fat from stored adipose tissue, fast enough, and a massive breakdown of lean tissue including organs start to take place. Downregulation of metabolism will also not happen if the body has enough bodyfat, since the starvation mode is to protect the body when getting too lean. Yep, the CICO principle is still valid...
                    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                    - Schopenhauer

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                    • Originally posted by Omni View Post
                      CICO at it's most basic level is true, if you starve someone, yes they will lose weight, then die.
                      In normal scenarios under calorie restriction, the body in some cases does choose to downregulate metabolism before it will utilize fat stores and this is not a healthy position, so under those conditions CICO rule fails.

                      As for the carbohydrate question, fruitarians are probably a bad example, but nevertheless, there are groups of individuals who do well on a carb dominant diet, so there is much more to the world of healthy diet than just high fat low carb.
                      I think people who frequent forums like this, start to believe that VLC diets are common and healthy but if you look at almost every culture, you will essentially find none who eat that way. The VLC population is a miniscule percent of the world population, people need to remember that.

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                      • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                        A person will not starve without food before he have lost so much bodyfat that the body can't mobilize enough fat from stored adipose tissue, fast enough, and a massive breakdown of lean tissue including organs start to take place. Downregulation of metabolism will also not happen if the body has enough bodyfat, since the starvation mode is to protect the body when getting too lean. Yep, the CICO principle is still valid...
                        Not when hormones are so messed up that these signals do not happen. Fat people can starve to death and a lot of fat people have very low metabolisms, that is why you see so many on crash diets and not losing any fat. You are completely wrong.

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                        • Originally posted by Zach View Post
                          Not when hormones are so messed up that these signals do not happen. Fat people can starve to death and a lot of fat people have very low metabolisms, that is why you see so many on crash diets and not losing any fat. You are completely wrong.
                          Fat people that dies when dieting are usually messing up their electrolytes and water balance, or have other medical issues. Lots of stored bodyfat is a very good insurance against starving to death...
                          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                          - Schopenhauer

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                          • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            Fat people that dies when dieting are usually messing up their electrolytes and water balance, or have other medical issues. Lots of stored bodyfat is a very good insurance against starving to death...
                            It sure is.

                            In general i disagree with CICO, mainly because it is impossible to place a fixed calorie number for anyone and say, eat more and gain, eat less and lose. It will vary greatly depending hundreds of factors. In a perfect world, one would never need to calorie count because the body would dispose of excess calories without needing to store them and regulate other processes when calories are deficient. When a person gains fat, there is almost always something wrong, be it environmental stress, hormone issues or something else.

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                            • Originally posted by Zach View Post
                              It sure is.

                              In general i disagree with CICO, mainly because it is impossible to place a fixed calorie number for anyone and say, eat more and gain, eat less and lose. It will vary greatly depending hundreds of factors. In a perfect world, one would never need to calorie count because the body would dispose of excess calories without needing to store them and regulate other processes when calories are deficient. When a person gains fat, there is almost always something wrong, be it environmental stress, hormone issues or something else.
                              Yes, people always gain weight because they are overeating, but if we ask WHY they overeat we will get lots of different answers; Some overeat because they get addicted to processed food, others because of stress or anxiety, others from hormonal imbalances, and others again simply because they enjoy eating etc, etc., ad infinitum... Making a good calorie budjet is almost impossible without also adjusting portions over the time, and most overweight people starting on a low carb diet from SAD will usually lose lots of weight by default without even counting calories before they stall, and then they must adjust down their portions and eat less to continue to lose more weight...
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

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                              • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                                A person will not starve without food before he have lost so much bodyfat that the body can't mobilize enough fat from stored adipose tissue, fast enough, and a massive breakdown of lean tissue including organs start to take place. Downregulation of metabolism will also not happen if the body has enough bodyfat, since the starvation mode is to protect the body when getting too lean. Yep, the CICO principle is still valid...
                                I didn't say the numbers don't stack, just that the rule fails, to produce the desired outcome, and I don't consider severe hunger, psychological torment through denial of food and possible longer term physiological and psychological damage as acceptable conditions just to prove one can lose weight by calorie restriction, i don't think any of those characteristics are markers of good health.
                                "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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