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  • Think Atkins has evolved quite a bit toward the basic primal aproach, it was initialy very high protein based to achieve satiety/disgust.

    Along with genetics, there is personal history, the variability between individuals is affected by longterm metabolic imbalances as well as twisted brain pathways and these do take quite a long time to relax and straighten out.
    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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    • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
      If the body is fed too much carbs too frequently over a long period of time (aka the SAD), it does indeed "forget" how to burn fat. This is why people go through the carb flu.
      Even an obese and insulin resistant person burn fat from ingested food and stored bodyfat all the time, so that's just urban mythology without any scientific foundation whatsoever. What you call "carb flu" is not an physiological adaption to fat burning either, but never mind, just keep on by spewing nonsense and urban myths, at least it is entertaining to some extent...
      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

      - Schopenhauer

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      • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
        Even an obese and insulin resistant person burn fat from ingested food and stored bodyfat all the time, so that's just urban mythology without any scientific foundation whatsoever. What you call "carb flu" is not an physiological adaption to fat burning either, but never mind, just keep on by spewing nonsense and urban myths, at least it is entertaining to some extent...
        Please explain carb flu as you understand it.
        "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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        • Originally posted by Omni View Post
          Please explain carb flu as you understand it.
          Why should I, when there are almost as many different versions as there are people having those symptoms? The symptoms are real enough, but are not related to any physiological adaption to fat burning…
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            Why should I, when there are almost as many different versions as there are people having those symptoms? The symptoms are real enough, but are not related to any physiological adaption to fat burning…
            I actually thought you might have something useful to say, obviously not.
            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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            • Low carb/low fat will work, I am on a plan called Ideal Protein that is that way. Bulk of my calories are protein, but it is still a very low calorie diet, and keeps hunger and cravings at bay. That being said, you can do this in a paleo/primal way (that plan is NOT, except dinnertime), and yes you will lose weight fast.
              Yes, I know which forum I'm on, looking forward to ditching packets for primal after I drop 10 more lb.
              :-P
              Lol, edited to add. I was just replying to OP, apparently there are 27 pages of posts!

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              • I already updated with what I am doing.
                I am NOT doing low carb, lower fat.

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                • I did not read the entire thread, but isn't this what people called Faleo last year? Especially if you work out and you need fuel from somewhere?
                  My chocolatey Primal journey

                  Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

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                  • Hi Ayla, any update on meeting with a naturopath? I'm curious what herbs and spices they recommended to you for insulin sensitivity.

                    I know there are a lot of good options out there, I'm just curious what the experts consider the best of the best.
                    "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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                    • Originally posted by Omni View Post
                      Have you looked at any of Stephen Phinneys work, he seems to be the King of Keto, done quite a bit of research in the area and particularly with atheletes, there was an video interview with him from the ancestral health symposium, google should find it pretty easy.
                      Thank you - I will check it out
                      "It's a great life, if you don't weaken.". John Buchan

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                      • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                        You are here showing clearly that you don't fully understand what CICO really is, but the principle as such is untouchable, unfortunately when most persons try to use it they usually make lots of mistakes, and it is not easy because there are so many parameters in play on both sides of the equation, so I think that the avarage Joe when dieting could have more focus on portion control instead of counting calories. Calories is just an abstract measure for energy in food and basically losing weight is always eating less than the body needs for energy, and gaining weight(fat) is also always eating more than needed for the daily energy expenditure. People tend to overthink and complicate this simple fact, and it's not exactly rocket science either...
                        Gorbag, have you read Taubes' opinion on CICO? It does a very good job of explaining why many people continue to gain weight on low calorie diets. Energy partitioning is the gist of his explanation. When on a high-carb diet that constantly stimulates insulin, the insulin will transport the dietary carb and fat into your fat and muscle cells, often disproportionately depending on your genetic predisposition. If you are more geared to depositing this fat and carb (which will be converted into free fatty acids) in your fat cells, whilst your muscles becoming insulin resistant, you will begin to feel lethargic due to your brain urging you to expend less energy since all the fatty acids are being stored away and not able to be extracted for energy.

                        Even if you eat 1500 cals/day, yet a large majority is coming from carbohydrates, you are essentially locking all the stored fat away due to a constant insulin drip from your pancreas. The only energy you are getting is from the transient source of carbohydrates in your diet. Again, you will become lethargic because your body is telling you that there is no available energy, so you must shut down and be sedentary. This is why it is so hard to get overweight and obese people to work out. Not because they are lazy, but because their brain is literally telling them to save their energy because it does not think it has any. Another great biochemical explanation on this can be found in Dr. Cate Shanahan's book, Deep Nutrition.

                        Taubes explains obesity as a hormonal imbalance. The reason we grow fat is not because we eat a lot, we eat a lot because we grow fat, just as a child does not grow taller because he eats, he eats because he grows taller. It's a hormonal phenomena, not a caloric problem.

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                        • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Most people??? How is it possible for the body to store fat if you are not eating MORE than the body need for energy expenditure? I would rather say that EVERYBODY got fat due to overeating, but in a few cases certain diseases can make people overeat, that's true...
                          Gorbag, this post alone displays that you do not understand the role of insulin in the body, which is absolutely vital to understand why people get fat.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                            Gorbag, have you read Taubes' opinion on CICO? It does a very good job of explaining why many people continue to gain weight on low calorie diets. Energy partitioning is the gist of his explanation. When on a high-carb diet that constantly stimulates insulin, the insulin will transport the dietary carb and fat into your fat and muscle cells, often disproportionately depending on your genetic predisposition. If you are more geared to depositing this fat and carb (which will be converted into free fatty acids) in your fat cells, whilst your muscles becoming insulin resistant, you will begin to feel lethargic due to your brain urging you to expend less energy since all the fatty acids are being stored away and not able to be extracted for energy.

                            Even if you eat 1500 cals/day, yet a large majority is coming from carbohydrates, you are essentially locking all the stored fat away due to a constant insulin drip from your pancreas. The only energy you are getting is from the transient source of carbohydrates in your diet. Again, you will become lethargic because your body is telling you that there is no available energy, so you must shut down and be sedentary. This is why it is so hard to get overweight and obese people to work out. Not because they are lazy, but because their brain is literally telling them to save their energy because it does not think it has any. Another great biochemical explanation on this can be found in Dr. Cate Shanahan's book, Deep Nutrition.

                            Taubes explains obesity as a hormonal imbalance. The reason we grow fat is not because we eat a lot, we eat a lot because we grow fat, just as a child does not grow taller because he eats, he eats because he grows taller. It's a hormonal phenomena, not a caloric problem.
                            What a load of bollocks.

                            Common Nutrition Myths Ep.1: "You can't store fat without insulin." - YouTube

                            At best, an insulin spike can make people's energy drop and/or make them hungry. Store fat even in a deficit? Nonsensical.
                            Dark chocolate and coffee, running through my veins...

                            Fitocracy Workout Tracker:
                            https://www.fitocracy.com/profile/Shadowknight137/?feed
                            MFP Food Diary:
                            http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary/Shadowknight137
                            (Date is New Zealand Time UTC+ 12hours)

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                            • Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                              Gorbag, have you read Taubes' opinion on CICO ... since all the fatty acids are being stored away and not able to be extracted for energy ... Even if you eat 1500 cals/day, yet a large majority is coming from carbohydrates, you are essentially locking all the stored fat away due to a constant insulin drip from your pancreas ... Taubes explains obesity as a hormonal imbalance. The reason we grow fat is not because we eat a lot, we eat a lot because we grow fat, just as a child does not grow taller because he eats, he eats because he grows taller. It's a hormonal phenomena, not a caloric problem ... this post alone displays that you do not understand the role of insulin in the body, which is absolutely vital to understand why people get fat.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                                Gorbag, have you read Taubes' opinion on CICO? It does a very good job of explaining why many people continue to gain weight on low calorie diets. Energy partitioning is the gist of his explanation. When on a high-carb diet that constantly stimulates insulin, the insulin will transport the dietary carb and fat into your fat and muscle cells, often disproportionately depending on your genetic predisposition. If you are more geared to depositing this fat and carb (which will be converted into free fatty acids) in your fat cells, whilst your muscles becoming insulin resistant, you will begin to feel lethargic due to your brain urging you to expend less energy since all the fatty acids are being stored away and not able to be extracted for energy.

                                Even if you eat 1500 cals/day, yet a large majority is coming from carbohydrates, you are essentially locking all the stored fat away due to a constant insulin drip from your pancreas. The only energy you are getting is from the transient source of carbohydrates in your diet. Again, you will become lethargic because your body is telling you that there is no available energy, so you must shut down and be sedentary. This is why it is so hard to get overweight and obese people to work out. Not because they are lazy, but because their brain is literally telling them to save their energy because it does not think it has any. Another great biochemical explanation on this can be found in Dr. Cate Shanahan's book, Deep Nutrition.

                                Taubes explains obesity as a hormonal imbalance. The reason we grow fat is not because we eat a lot, we eat a lot because we grow fat, just as a child does not grow taller because he eats, he eats because he grows taller. It's a hormonal phenomena, not a caloric problem.
                                It is true to a certain degree that adipose storage creates another hormonal environment, but make no mistake about that it is still a calorie overload that makes you gain weight, and that insulin pulses are irrelevant to that. It doesn't matter that the body stores fat and glycogen by insulin, it does that most of the time after eating, but it also oxidates free fatty acids and glucose from the blood all the time, and there are no on/off switches into this, but the relative oxidation is related to ACTIVITY, and when doing intense work you will oxidate more glucose and less fatty acids, and when being inactive or moderate active the body will oxidate free fatty acids from dietary fat and from stored bodyfat. This basically work the same for an obese insulin resistant person and a lean person, the body burn fuel depending on level of activity, thats what human physiology 101 states.

                                It is impossible and against the fundamental laws of nature to gain weight by eating less than the body needs to maintain its weight, insulin or not, the only thing that count summa summarum is the energy balance, the body would die immediatly if it don't get enough energy to maintain it's fundamental processes within the cells, so it must take energy from some where, either from it's own depots of fat or glycogen, or from ingested food. So forget about theories if they indirectly say that you can gain weight out of thin air - because this is basically the logical consequenses of implying that the body can store fat when in a enrgy balance or even in a deficit - it's absurd and beyond retarded even insinuating the possibility of that(!)

                                So to repeat myself; you can only gain weight by eating MORE than the body need for maintaing it's weight and vice versa you can only lose weight by eating LESS than the body need to maintain it's weight, and there are no chance in hell to bypass that simple principle - I would have much less problems in believing in miracles, magic and walking over water etc. than abandoning that fundamental fact...
                                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                                - Schopenhauer

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