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  • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
    Well you are wrong; there is no magic or sorcery going on in your body. Fluctuation in mental stress or anxiety etc. may burn more or less calories over time, metabolic slowdown due to advanced age, physical activity etc. so it's a lot of factors in play, but the rock bottom of it all is calories in and calories out, there is no way to bypass that…
    I don't think that there is any "magic" going on at all. There is a scientific explanation of course, but CI/CO is too simple to catch what's going on. Lets take a look:

    Before low-carb, I averaged 2628kcalories per day, and I gained 5lbs per year on average. So using your theory, (5lbs is 3500x5 kcal divided by 365 days), so I was eating approx 49 extra kcal per day.

    Seven weeks ago, I changed to lfhc, and I average 3050kcal per day and I have lost 13.3lbs. So again using your theory (13.3lbs is 3500x13.3 kcal divided by 43 days), so I have been eating approx 1082 to FEW kcal per day.

    Are you suggesting that I am burning 1082+49=1131 more calories a day with minimal changes in my activity level? By the way, your argument contradicts itself - if my metabolism was slowing down due to advancing age, I would be gaining even MORE weight.

    Like I said, simplistic and outdated CW. Calories in calories out is maybe a starting point at best.

    1082 calories for my height and weight:
    49min bicycle race without drafting
    4hours 20min walking dog
    1 hour 5min boxing in the ring
    2 hours 10min vigorous weightlifting

    I assure you, I have not added this much daily activity by a long shot. I have weight lifted on and off for years (so nothing new here). My job has gotten increasingly sedentary over the years (but I recently made an effort to do more). I bike MUCH less. And, I now walk maybe an hour a week.

    Do you think that maybe some foods take more ENERGY than others to digest fully? Or that different states, like ketosis which I am in for example, have different efficiencies? Or that intermittent fasting might change my hormonal balance in a way that helps with fat loss? Or that vitamin D has been shown to help with fat loss? Or that omega 3 has been shown to reduce belly fat? Or that MCT may help with fat loss? Or that saturated fat has been shown to promote fat loss? And that vitamin k has been shown to promote fat loss? Or that protein might be used by the body to repair lean tissue instead of benig used as energy? Or the activation of different enzymes in the body as a response to different foods?

    Like I said, there is much more (non-magical things) going on inside a human body than just calories in - calories out.
    "It's a great life, if you don't weaken.". John Buchan

    Comment


    • Originally posted by itchy166 View Post
      Like I said, there is much more (non-magical things) going on inside a human body than just calories in - calories out.
      And you are right. Its the health of your entire system. Its not necessarily CICO that is incorrect (just simplistic)... its "eat less and exercise more" that is truly infuriating and doesn't work for people who have been overfed and undernourished for an extended time.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by itchy166 View Post
        Do you think that maybe some foods take more ENERGY than others to digest fully? Or that different states, like ketosis which I am in for example, have different efficiencies? Or that intermittent fasting might change my hormonal balance in a way that helps with fat loss? Or that vitamin D has been shown to help with fat loss? Or that omega 3 has been shown to reduce belly fat? Or that MCT may help with fat loss? Or that saturated fat has been shown to promote fat loss? And that vitamin k has been shown to promote fat loss? Or that protein might be used by the body to repair lean tissue instead of benig used as energy? Or the activation of different enzymes in the body as a response to different foods?

        Like I said, there is much more (non-magical things) going on inside a human body than just calories in - calories out.
        You are here showing clearly that you don't fully understand what CICO really is, but the principle as such is untouchable, unfortunately when most persons try to use it they usually make lots of mistakes, and it is not easy because there are so many parameters in play on both sides of the equation, so I think that the avarage Joe when dieting could have more focus on portion control instead of counting calories. Calories is just an abstract measure for energy in food and basically losing weight is always eating less than the body needs for energy, and gaining weight(fat) is also always eating more than needed for the daily energy expenditure. People tend to overthink and complicate this simple fact, and it's not exactly rocket science either...
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

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        • CICO is so simplistic that it is almost irrelevant in any nutritional discussion.

          It's only good as a starting point, but lots of fine tuning will be required to get the individual balance right.
          "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            You are here showing clearly that you don't fully understand what CICO really is, but the principle as such is untouchable, unfortunately when most persons try to use it they usually make lots of mistakes, and it is not easy because there are so many parameters in play on both sides of the equation, so I think that the avarage Joe when dieting could have more focus on portion control instead of counting calories. Calories is just an abstract measure for energy in food and basically losing weight is always eating less than the body needs for energy, and gaining weight(fat) is also always eating more than needed for the daily energy expenditure. People tend to overthink and complicate this simple fact, and it's not exactly rocket science either...
            I don't even need much science to prove my point.

            I am in ketosis. I know this because I pee on a stick that changes color in the presence of ketones. Ketones are made inside my body from breaking down fatty acids.

            Ketones can be used by my body as fuel (calories). If my body isn't very good at using ketones, or I am making ketones faster than my body can using them (they don't stay in my blodstream too long), I pee them out!!! (again, I KNOW this, because I MEASURE THEM COMING OUT!!!)

            My way of eating causes me to pee away some of the calories that I consume. So literally CI=CO yes, but not the calories out that you are talking about... I think you don't fully understand what CICO really is.
            "It's a great life, if you don't weaken.". John Buchan

            Comment


            • Originally posted by itchy166 View Post
              Ketones can be used by my body as fuel (calories). If my body isn't very good at using ketones, or I am making ketones faster than my body can using them (they don't stay in my blodstream too long), I pee them out!!! (again, I KNOW this, because I MEASURE THEM COMING OUT!!!)
              Just clarifying, I'm not fully up with the ketone thing and have never bothered trying to measure or read a vast amount into the detail or specifics,

              but when you pee them out and can measure with a stick, isn't that the transitional stage and when you go into complete ketosis you really don't excrete them in your urine.

              just want to know as I read something along those lines, here I think it was.
              "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by janie View Post
                You prove my point Gorbag.
                Yes. Proponents of CICO take it as equivalent to the analytic fact that you can only gain/lose if you ingest more/less energy than you expend. Opponents of CICO don't dispute this. "CICO is true but there are lots of interdependent factors" is precisely what the other side means when it says "CICO is too simple." It's not a substantial debate.

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                • Originally posted by Omni View Post
                  Just clarifying, I'm not fully up with the ketone thing and have never bothered trying to measure or read a vast amount into the detail or specifics,

                  but when you pee them out and can measure with a stick, isn't that the transitional stage and when you go into complete ketosis you really don't excrete them in your urine.

                  just want to know as I read something along those lines, here I think it was.
                  Yes, that is how I understand it as well. (although both my wife and I can detect them after seven weeks). The longer we eat this way, the better we will be at using ketones apparently. You can be in ketosis and have no ketones in your urine. I was just trying to point out limitations to the CI=CO theory.

                  Here are some really good articles on ketosis:

                  The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.Can your food make you fit? The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.
                  Ketosis
                  Ketosis

                  The authors of these two blogs both stay in a almost permanent ketogenic state.

                  Just a reminder before I get flamed, PB and Paleo in no way have to be as low-carb as what I eat. I eat this low because I naturally gravitate towards high-fat foods and away from tons of fruit and vegetables. I also have trouble staying Primal in some of the work settings I am in (I am often in work camps where I have no control at all over what is available), so I started IFing and supplementing MTC oils as strategies to skip meals when needed. Now I skip meals all of the time even when I am home, then eat large meals when I do eat.

                  One more thing, I don't really give advice as to what others should eat. I really think that we are all different, and we should find an individual way to eat that suits our needs. This way is working very well for me. Some of what the CI=CO crowd is saying is valid, just incomplete. Calorie counting works for many people, and is a good starting point. Same thing with Primal/Paleo - it works for many people without counting anything, and is again a good starting point. I like to read lots and tweak things - its my nature.
                  "It's a great life, if you don't weaken.". John Buchan

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by itchy166 View Post

                    Calories In / Calories out says I should be increasing weight faster now than what I was gaining on a SAD diet, obviously something else is going on. I believe calories in / calories out is a simplistic and outdated theory. Obviously, a human body isn't a very good calorimeter, and why would it be? There is a hell of a lot more going on in my body than burning food in an oxygen chamber..
                    That has been my experience as well. For me, weight gain comes from carbs. Eating primally, I don't even worry about calories.
                    High Weight: 225
                    Weight at start of Primal: 189
                    Current Weight: 174
                    Goal Weight: 130

                    Primal Start Date: 11/26/2012

                    Comment


                    • oh dear God

                      I havent read this all, but I did read the first half dozen pages fairly well. And now I have a knot in my gut. I have been eating under my BMR for over a year, with the exception of maybe a dozen days.

                      Weight loss is none existent anymore. And I still have plenty to lose. Changing macros hasnt helped. Changing calories hasnt helped. From low to even lower to not quite as low as before. Ugghh I start to think something is working again when I lose a pound, then gain a pound, lose a pound gain a pound. I am so happy to see the activity and then I realize I am not making any ground. Even now, I think I might be gaining ground but hard to tell because I added in activity. Now I read this don't eat below BMR thing. ugghhh

                      Could trying so hard to be a good girl be my complete demise? I just wanna puke.
                      65lbs gone and counting!!

                      Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

                      Comment


                      • Gopintos, it's really very easy depending on how much you have to lose:

                        1. Eat between 0.5 and 1.0 pound of LEAN meat or fish per day.
                        2. Eat as much raw or cooked fibrous vegetables as you like.
                        3. Eat one spoonful of fish oil, one multivitamin, and one cube of broth.
                        4. Drink unsweetened coffee, tea, or DietCoke, Icewater. A little lemonjuice or milk allowed.

                        No counting of calories necessary, when you are leaning out you can start implementing starches and fruits back into your diet again...
                        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                        - Schopenhauer

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Gopintos, it's really very easy depending on how much you have to lose:

                          1. Eat between 0.5 and 1.0 pound of LEAN meat or fish per day.
                          2. Eat as much raw or cooked fibrous vegetables as you like.
                          3. Eat one spoonful of fish oil, one multivitamin, and one cube of broth.
                          4. Drink unsweetened coffee, tea, or DietCoke, Icewater. A little lemonjuice or milk allowed.

                          No counting of calories necessary, when you are leaning out you can start implementing starches and fruits back into your diet again...
                          That still sounds under BMR.
                          65lbs gone and counting!!

                          Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

                          Comment


                          • It's a wonder how in the world I ever even lost 70lbs.

                            Just when I think I have this figured out, I realize I dont have a clue.
                            Last edited by gopintos; 02-21-2013, 02:36 PM.
                            65lbs gone and counting!!

                            Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

                            Comment


                            • Gopintos, if you are still losing weight just continue to do what you are doing...
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by itchy166 View Post
                                Here are some really good articles on ketosis:

                                The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.Can your food make you fit? The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.
                                Ketosis
                                Ketosis

                                The authors of these two blogs both stay in a almost permanent ketogenic state.
                                Have you looked at any of Stephen Phinneys work, he seems to be the King of Keto, done quite a bit of research in the area and particularly with atheletes, there was an video interview with him from the ancestral health symposium, google should find it pretty easy.
                                "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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