Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Anyone heard of this guy?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by pslebow View Post
    I would suggest that no one on this site spend anytime on Plant Positive. He so thoroughly and meticulously tears the paleo fad to shreds, exposing the lack of any anthropological or biological basis, that any paleos here with an ounce of scientific honesty would be very threatened. Its easy to say his ideas are "just as refutable as anything" but I haven't seen anyone give a point-by-point critique of his videos as he does against the high-fat, low-carb marketeers.
    You must of missed my point by point critique earlier.

    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post

    ....his nasal superslow mode of narration makes me want to crawl face first over a pit of broken glass just to take my mind off of the damage he is doin to my ears.
    Send me the transcript and maybe I'll read it...then shred it for its lack of anything useful....but I refuse to submit my ears to such pain ever again!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by pslebow View Post
      I would suggest that no one on this site spend anytime on Plant Positive. He so thoroughly and meticulously tears the paleo fad to shreds, exposing the lack of any anthropological or biological basis, that any paleos here with an ounce of scientific honesty would be very threatened. Its easy to say his ideas are "just as refutable as anything" but I haven't seen anyone give a point-by-point critique of his videos as he does against the high-fat, low-carb marketeers.
      I ignored most of his videos for a while. The only person I've seen take him on is Anthony Colpo and Colpo got dismantled.
      He destroys a hell of a lot of the things you read in paleo blogs. You'll see how one or 2 people say something then next thing you know it's circulated and accepted as fact.
      Take Ancel keys for example. Turns out he didn't "cherry pick" 7 countries from the 22 country graph at all as I learned from this blog. He ditched countries that didn't have adequate mortality data, INCLUDING countries that would of best supported his hypothesis. People should be more careful before smearing the name and trashing the legacy of the deceased.

      Edit.
      He just covered that Catalyst episode.
      Catalyst Corrected 1 (The History of Diet-Heart, Part 1 Ancel Keys, George Mann, and John Yudkin ) - YouTube

      Originally posted by zebonaut View Post
      I got fat eating "low fat" pizza. I'd clear the "fatty cheese" off the top and just eat the crust. Im reeling just now; thinking about how I must have spiked my blood glucose and insulin; and stimulated appetite; raised my triglycerides; created small dense LDL particles and shot my insulin levels through the roof
      Most pizza bases have a fair bit of oil. As well as the oil it would have soaked up from the cheese while cooking.
      Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 01-26-2014, 10:08 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by pslebow View Post
        I would suggest that no one on this site spend anytime on Plant Positive. He so thoroughly and meticulously tears the paleo fad to shreds, exposing the lack of any anthropological or biological basis, that any paleos here with an ounce of scientific honesty would be very threatened. Its easy to say his ideas are "just as refutable as anything" but I haven't seen anyone give a point-by-point critique of his videos as he does against the high-fat, low-carb marketeers.
        Exactly. He may an agenda but I have not heard anyone put forth more credible and documented arguments, including Chris Masterjohn. Even Denise Minger has thoroughly debunked the HFLC lies re Ancel Keys. Just compare his presentation to some of the crackpots who regularly show-up on Jimmy Moore's podcasts.

        Comment


        • #19
          I made it to the start of the 2nd video. The guy is so full of misdirection and straw man arguments it's ridiculous. I don't know if he's a vegan militant, was paleo in the past or whatever. It's not worth the time to listen to.

          Comment


          • #20
            I was never a vegan, nor vegetarian. I ate fish and dairy, but no meat… until recently.
            Eating meat I feel so much better.
            But I have to say, a healthy vegetarian diet is still better than the average western diet.
            As someone who still ate fish you can still eat low carb without realising. I was eating fish and avocado, no grains, no simple carbs. I felt pretty well. It is easy to think this kind of diet is optimum.
            Im not talking about a veggie diet that is full of crappy carbs and soy and sugar.
            its not the best, but far better than the worst
            'Myths which are believed in tend to become true'
            George Orwell

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by glorth2 View Post
              I made it to the start of the 2nd video. The guy is so full of misdirection and straw man arguments it's ridiculous. I don't know if he's a vegan militant, was paleo in the past or whatever. It's not worth the time to listen to.
              Ok, please give a few examples of his misdirection and/or strawman arguments. Do you agree with him and Denise Minger about how Ancel Keys has been slandered? The underpinning and opening salvo of almost every WPF, Paleo, HFLC, or primal presentation is an attack on Ancel Keys for cherry picking data to support his flawed hypothesis. Now we are learning that Keys was thoughtful, diligent and honest. What does that say about those who continue to malign him?

              Comment


              • #22
                It means they're yet uninformed.

                I'd only read (part) of Minger's veneration of his study very recently. Maybe he was on to something more than we give him credit for. Need to finish that article...

                M.

                Comment


                • #23
                  The only results that matter are the ones that you can see personally.

                  Increasing meat/fat intake and drastically reducing grains and processed foods has improved every possible health marker for me. I am not seven countries and I'm not a rabbit in a lab. The approach to eating that the paleo/primal idea has led me to works for me, regardless of what some anti-paleo evangelist on YT says. His rants aren't going to change my body's response to the fuel I give it, so whatever he says is irrelevant. In this instance, he's terribly wrong, and I'm completely right. The end.
                  I got 99 problems but a pancake ain't one...

                  My Journal

                  Height: 6'3"
                  SW (Feb 2012): 278
                  SBF: 26% (Scale)
                  CW (Sept 2015): 200
                  CBF: 17% (Scale)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
                    Ok, please give a few examples of his misdirection and/or strawman arguments.
                    Here's one, from this post:
                    Bowden is talking about the Lyons heart trial and how the best performing diet in that trial in terms of heart disease was the mediterranian diet, but cholesterol levels weren't lowered. Bowden made the point that lowered cholesterol levels were NOT the cause of the reduced heart disease risk.

                    Plant Primitive's response "Bowden seems pretty convinced that this blows up the lipid hypothesis. He must have really studied this."
                    and another "Iíve made a video for people like Bowden who donít understand this concept. He really needs to watch it and think hard about it."

                    I mean really, that's just snide condescension.

                    And when he says "If he believes what heís saying about oxidation then heíll advise patients to avoid cholesterol-filled animal foods." PP is disingenuously conflating eating animals with eating deliberately oxidised cholesterol.

                    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
                    Do you agree with him and Denise Minger about how Ancel Keys has been slandered?
                    I do. I think that nutritional science is full of misinformation and we're constantly improving our understanding.

                    However, that doesn't mean that he's right about everything either.
                    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                    Griff's cholesterol primer
                    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                    bloodorchid is always right

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      What magicmerl describes is exactly what I'm talking about except I only made it as far as the same type of treatment about Eisenhower's diet. But I'll go you one further. What's the point here? Is this guy's point that eating meat is bad and, hence, the paleo diet is bad? I have no intention of debating the health benefits of PROPERLY RAISED animal products. If he or you don't agree, fine, go eat your tofu as your effect on the supply/demand curve will lower the cost of my animal flesh. Primal/paleo is not a meat only diet or even a primarily meat diet. Do some people use it that way? Sure, but even that's probably better than a primarily processed foods diet. Mark's site and every other paleo site I know of is replete with recommendations to eat lots of vegetables. If you can't find it, you're blind. I'll tell you what, I'm 44 and I've never liked vegetables in my life. Now I'm not going to tell you that I like them as much as a steak but it wasn't until I got into this eating system that I started eating salads. Now I eat gigantic salads with wild caught salmon twice a week. So I'm not a doctor and I don't know who Ancel Keys is and I don't know who you are but you're the guy talking shit on a paleo diet forum about the paleo diet. I feel and look better on this diet than I ever have in my life, know other people with similar results and read about other people with fantastic results every day. So, again, what's your point?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I guess I fail to see where Key's being an honorable fella, a misinformed fool, or a blatant liar affects anything? Seriously, in the whole Primal book which I just searched, there is like one paragraph on how some of the fat fear started with Keys back in the 60's. Not an entire book premised on burning the guy at the stake! Simple statement that some of his ideas erroneously shaped public policy. And when I read the Paleo Solution I don't even think the guy was mentioned at all! So if your point is that showing Keys to be a blatant liar is the linchpin of all that is paleo/primal/WAP I've got some bad news for ya....its but a blip on the radar...a side note about public policy at most. The clincher is in current science along with anthropological evidence. The plant guy's stuff is misleading to say the least.
                        Last edited by Neckhammer; 01-29-2014, 11:51 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          And when I read the Paleo Solution I don't even think the guy was mentioned at all!
                          Just searched my kindle version and found a few paragraphs in Keys on page 103. It does state that he "conveniently threw out all of the conflicting results" from the 22 country studies to get only the 7 which supported his views. Wolf also mentions that the studies showed that some countries with high fat intakes showed low CVD, while others with high CVD had low fat intakes.

                          I haven't read anything about the "debunking" of this perspective yet though.

                          I also agree that key's study isn't a lynch pin to paleo as there's so much more to it.
                          If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

                          Originally posted by tfarny
                          If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I guess his point is to counter disinformation and Yes, he's definitely snide. I think that's one of the reason people won't actually give him much time, but the content goes so in depth and gives you so much to think about. Getting a lot of what you thought you knew switched on it's head is humbling to say the least. I can guarantee anyone here who has an inquisitive mind will gain hell of a lot from his videos, though maybe a few true believers will just shut it all out and nitpick things like his voice or a few of his interpretations.
                            I have read most of the books and blogs over the last 4 years, from Ravonskov, Colpo, Wolf, Jaminet, Eades, Colpo, Kresser, Malcomn kendrick, Ernest Curtis, Nora gedgaudas, Groves etc etc. He truly makes them seem like sloppy misleading fringe dwellers that use the same kinds of methods as all the other small but loud online crackpot groups that shut out any evidence that conflicts with the beliefs they hold so closely. And a lot of the time he's taking them apart with their actual own studies that they tried to misinterpret. He digs extremely deep and he's very familiar with all the topics.

                            Ancel keys is only one of dozens of topics he's covered. And I can hardly call the Ancel keys slander insignificant, he's had his name rubbished and dragged through the dirt by basically every low carb and paleo blog at one point or another. People were happy to do that without even knowing or probably even caring whether it was true. If enough people believe it and have the same talking points then I guess it just becomes gospel. The information was there and only this plant positive guy actually took the time to research so many of these topics.
                            I know of several prominent former devoted paleo forum posters who have backed off and said they drastically changed many of their beliefs after viewing all the videos. I think he embarrassed Kurt Harris a bit when he first released his video's and he is hardly seen anymore. I have only seen him pop up in comments once since and had seemed to have changed his stance on cholesterol.

                            If anyone finds any mistakes in his video's then point them out to him, he'll give you credit and update his webpage.
                            Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 01-30-2014, 03:30 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
                              I guess his point is to counter disinformation and Yes, he's definitely snide. I think that's one of the reason people won't actually give him much time, but the content goes so in depth and gives you so much to think about. Getting a lot of what you thought you knew switched on it's head is humbling to say the least. I can guarantee anyone here who has an inquisitive mind will gain hell of a lot from his videos, though maybe a few true believers will just shut it all out and nitpick things like his voice or a few of his interpretations.
                              I have read most of the books and blogs over the last 4 years, from Ravonskov, Colpo, Wolf, Jaminet, Eades, Colpo, Kresser, Malcomn kendrick, Ernest Curtis, Nora gedgaudas, Groves etc etc. He truly makes them seem like sloppy misleading fringe dwellers that use the same kinds of methods as all the other small but loud online crackpot groups that shut out any evidence that conflicts with the beliefs they hold so closely. And a lot of the time he's taking them apart with their actual own studies that they tried to misinterpret. He digs extremely deep and he's very familiar with all the topics.

                              Ancel keys is only one of dozens of topics he's covered. And I can hardly call the Ancel keys slander insignificant, he's had his name rubbished and dragged through the dirt by basically every low carb and paleo blog at one point or another. People were happy to do that without even knowing or probably even caring whether it was true. If enough people believe it and have the same talking points then I guess it just becomes gospel. The information was there and only this plant positive guy actually took the time to research so many of these topics.
                              I know of several prominent former devoted paleo forum posters who have backed off and said they drastically changed many of their beliefs. I think he embarrassed Kurt Harris a bit when he first released his video's and he is hardly seen anymore.
                              I only saw him pop up in comments once since and had seemed to have changed his stance on cholesterol.

                              If anyone finds any mistakes in his video's then point them out to him, he'll give you credit and update his webpage.
                              +1. Many (most?) of the nutrition/dietary gurus are dishonest charlatans trying to sell products. Excluding them you are left with some honest scientists and doctors trying to understand our incomprehensibly complicated biochemistry. I put folks like Chris Masterjohn and Peter Attia in this category. I respectfully disagree with those who say the attack on Ancel Keys' research is not that important. When I first started reading about Paleo/primal diets, at every turn someone was attacking the lipid-heart hypothesis and blamed it on the duplicitous research conducted by Ancel Keys. I can tell you that HFLC was an absolute disaster for me. I ate nothing but the best grass fed/finished beef, bison, Wildplanet tuna, pastured eggs, Kerrygold butter, Nutiva coconut oil, etc, etc. I kept PUFA's at less than 2% as suggested by Kresser, ate about 50g carbs daily (100% gluten free) and about 125g daily protein. I became extremely fatigued and cholesterol skyrocketed. If this kind of diet works for you great but it was a disaster for me.

                              Listening to people argue about which diet is best and which CHD markers are valid reminds me of two fleas arguing about which direction they are going to make the elephant go. Peter Attia got much praise for his cholesterol series where he clearly and adamantly stated that LDL-P is the only thing that matters. Just a few months later he said it isn't that clear. Now he is famous for his "nuanced" answers. I think Denise Minger said it best when she offered criteria to help determine competence and trustworthiness of an "expert". If they appear open-minded and are willing to change or, in fact, have changed some of their views, they are probably worth listening to. If they adamantly cling to their views and are 100% confident that they know the right answer then you should probably not listen to them. I cringe when people come on this forum seeking advice about their lipid numbers and people respond "Don't worry, your numbers are great. Your doctor does not know anything. The only thing that counts is LDL-P. Or, the only thing that matters is the ratio of HDL/Trig. Or, don't worry because the increase in LDL is the large fluffy kind which is not a problem". The fact is we do not really understand the fundamental mechanism of plaque deposition and, more importantly, we do not know what causes plaque to rupture. Making it even more complicated, I suspect the mechanisms are very different for different people and, as previously mentioned, genetics probably trumps everything.

                              What really cracks me up is the most used debate expression "correlation does not equal causation"; yet, when a correlation supports a personal view, it is viewed as valuable insight. Conformational bias is rampant.
                              Last edited by Artbuc; 01-30-2014, 04:00 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Misabi View Post
                                Just searched my kindle version and found a few paragraphs in Keys on page 103. It does state that he "conveniently threw out all of the conflicting results" from the 22 country studies to get only the 7 which supported his views. Wolf also mentions that the studies showed that some countries with high fat intakes showed low CVD, while others with high CVD had low fat intakes.

                                I haven't read anything about the "debunking" of this perspective yet though.

                                I also agree that key's study isn't a lynch pin to paleo as there's so much more to it.

                                Ah, so it was a blip in the Paleo Solution as well. Yeah, I have the PB on kindle so it was easy to use the "find" function. I actually bought the Paleo Solution first and far before having a Kindle so didn't feel like digging through the hard copy. All I knew was when I read it I didn't come away with "hey did you hear about Ancel Keys?" LOL. Maybe this is important to people getting their info from secondary and tertiary sources (i.e. their neighbor who has blog), but for any of us who have gone to the source its a non-issue.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X